Episode 96: Reconnecting to Joyful Learning. A Conversation with Meredith Reyes.

We sit down with former public school teacher Meredith Reyes to unpack the moment burnout stopped being manageable and started being dangerous. She shares how moving states changed her working conditions overnight and how homeschooling helped her rebuild learning around safety, curiosity and mastery. 

• Meredith’s path from lifelong “teacher kid” to ten-year public school veteran 
• COVID-era boundary shifts that made teachers feel less valued 
• IEP realities when supports do not match student needs 
• Paperwork, assessments and required programs crowding out teaching time 
• Class size pressure and why union protections mattered in California 
• Texas culture shock: pay cut, longer days, extra events and unprotected prep 
• The mental health spiral that led to a mid-year resignation 
• An active shooter drill that felt real and reshaped school safety concerns 
• Early homeschooling mistakes: recreating school at home 
• De-schooling and building a flexible family rhythm for learning 
• Inquiry-based learning and following rabbit holes on purpose 
• Mixed-age co-op learning and why age grouping is a school construct 
• Rethinking grades through mastery-based learning and repeated practice 
• The value of conversation as assessment, not just worksheets 
• Books and voices that helped, including Julie Bogart and The Brave Learner 
• The teachers who kindled Meredith’s love of learning early on 

About our guest
Meredith Reyes is an experienced classroom teacher in both California and Texas. After years of teaching in public schools she decided to make the move to homeschool her own children. Meredith shares her journey on instagram as @thestringymama.

Connect with Meredith
The Stringy Mama

About the podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.

Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.

Got a burning question?
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Transcript

Burnout Hits Home

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I was crying in the shower, sobbing all the time. And my husband was like, You are a shell of yourself. You need to do something. You need to quit. And when he said that, I was like, that's not even an option. But like he put it on the table. I'm like, oh, this job is gonna kill me if I stay any longer.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

Hello, and welcome to the Kindle Podcast. I'm Katie Broadbett, and I'll be your host for today. In this episode, we're talking to Meredith Reyes, who is a teacher-turned homeschooler. Meredith shares her journey and thoughts on social as at the stringy mama on Instagram. And I would highly recommend checking that out and giving her a follow. It's really entertaining and educational as she shares her journey in homeschooling. I loved our conversation today. I found it very instructive and interesting. And I know that you will too. So let's go talk to Meredith. Meredith Reyes, welcome to the Kindle podcast. We're super excited to have you. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. Okay, so first things first, why don't you tell everyone who you are? I kind of want to understand like your origin story, right? So, like, why are we talking to Meredith Reyes? What makes you special? Because you are very special. I've learned a lot from you and I I love everything you're about and just want our understanding, our audience to understand where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yes. So I am one of those stories where I wanted to be a teacher ever since I can remember. I'm the oldest of six kids, and with that comes wanting to boss your siblings around. So I played school when I was a kid, and I always wanted to be a teacher. So I went to it immediately, like right after high school. I became an avid tutor at a the high school that I graduated from. So I worked in a high school for two years, and then, you know, I got eventually got my uh degree in child development, and then my teaching credential, and then my master's degree in curriculum and instruction, like all in on education. I ended up, I taught for 10 years in the in the public school system, mostly in California, a little bit in Texas. And across my 10 years, it was pretty well-rounded, uh well-rounded career. I taught everything from reading intervention to English as a second language, and then all of the elementary grades except for like I taught kindergarten, second grade, third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade. So I just did all of them except for first. Um, and so that's my my career. And now I homeschool. So like I did a major pivot, and now I homeschool.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

So talk me through that. Like, what was your experience? I think actually we should say first that you are telling this story, this transition story from the classroom to homeschooling on your Instagram, which is how we met, right? And that is the stringy mama, right? Correct. Okay, perfect. So tell me the story. Like, why are you hauled that? Like, what's what's the story behind that?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

So uh my maiden name has string as part of it. So when I was in college, stringy was just a nickname. And when I started my Instagram, like my social media, uh, I started sharing mom stuff. Like I was had nothing to do with teaching, homeschooling, anything like that. I just have evolved as a person as we do over time. And so I just started sharing mom stuff. It's kind of like an isolating time when you're a new mom and your friends aren't having kids. You know, I had as a teacher, I either had friends that were younger than me and didn't have kids, or I had way older friends who had adult children and I just what found myself in the stage. And so I kind of started sharing it and enjoyed that. And then I started sharing the and then it had just evolved. But then I started really struggling in teaching and shared that. And then I left teaching and shared that. And I got, you know, people have a lot of strong opinions online. So I got used to that. A lot of hate online about, you know, teachers quitting, like it's some sort of calling that you should never leave. And then I started homeschooling and started sharing that. So it's just, I I thought it was going to be a very niche thing, but I have found I've connected with a lot of people in the same situation as me, like teachers who have left the classroom, I think, which I think is very telling to homeschool their kids.

COVID And The Plate That Never Clears

SPEAKER_00 3:47

Absolutely. Just to share my personal experience, I used to be a speech language pathologist in schools. And then when I started having kids, I also chose to homeschool. So very same vibe. I'm curious when you were thinking about stepping away from teaching, what was that like? What emotions did you experience? Like, did you find you had a lot of pushback? Did you have support? Did you talk about it a lot? Like, what was the process? Take me through it. Tell me the story.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

So, like I mentioned, the majority of my career was in California. And I was starting to feel the burnout. I would say, like, COVID hit us all hard. And I was, so I was teaching through COVID. The years I taught, I feel like it's important to state because then you know the time period and where COVID hits. Um, I started around 2012 to 2022. That was my 10-year span. And so um, I lasted a few years after COVID, like it was the end of 2022 where I ended up quitting. COVID showed me the lines that could be crossed in education. There were so many times where I was like, oh, they certainly won't have us do this. They should certainly won't have me stand at a computer and teach kids online while I'm also teaching kids in the classroom. Like, those are HIPAA violations. They won't do that. Like I kept saying they won't do this, they won't do this, and they kept doing it. And so I started to feel less valued over time. No one individually, like no admin individually, like they're just following their orders. So that's when it started. And then I hit burnout, burnout in California, but I had to keep my job because the insurance was incredible. And I was just like, okay, I need to stay here for the insurance. Now, I also want to say I loved teaching. Like the act of teaching, I loved, I still love, I adored it. That is not why I left. A lot of teachers will say, like, they left because of the students. I did not leave because of because of the students. There are difficulties with the students, but it does, it's not their fault. It's the lack of supports and things like that. I loved teaching, I still do, which is why homeschool um it wasn't them, but the burnout from everything else, like all the other obstacles. So when I was sitting here and thinking before we met, when I was sitting here and thinking about why I love teaching, it was the kids, it was the lessons, it was the aha moments, it was connecting with my students. I was like a big storyteller with my class because I feel like in order for your kids to listen to you, they have to trust you. And in order to trust you, they have to connect with you. So I they knew my dog's names, my kids' names, everything. And so I loved it. And it was hard to leave, it was hard to make that realization that okay, this is not what I thought it was going to be. This profession evolved to something that is not teaching. There's so much outside of teaching. And then when I moved to Texas, it was an even bigger shock. Um, and I mean, the differences, it was, it was complete culture shock teaching in California to Texas. And that led me to like urgently quit. I was in this uh in the Texas school system for I don't know, four months, four months, because I started in August and then quit by November. Like I wrote my letter of resignation in September. I was in in school for like a month and I was like, whoa, fast stop. And I stayed until they could fill my position.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

What were those things? Like, what caused that culture shock? And I'm also it's kind of a double header question. What kind of were your expectations about being a teacher that then weren't met? Like you kept you keep saying like it was it's become something different. Like describe for someone who's not been in the classroom, describe what those differences are and then talk to me about the culture shock of switching states.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Okay, so for it not being what I thought it was going to be, I thought silly me, the teacher thought it was about the students. I thought that's what teaching was about. And that's what I tried to make it about. When you are not provided, when you're given an IEP and you need to adhere to these accommodations for this student, and yet you're not given the support to carry those out, it's incredibly frustrating. And when you fight back, it's like sometimes I remember one specific instance, they wanted me to sign off in an on an IEP that a student was receiving accommodations, but they didn't match what they were supposed to be getting. They weren't providing services for the subject areas that the this student needed that they because it didn't fit their schedule. So they provided support for other subject areas. So I wouldn't sign off on it. So I was kind of like from the beginning. This was in the beginning of my teaching career, like, oh, I'm not gonna do that because you're not giving me what I need. So I was kind of a pain in the butt for those reasons because I was feeling like I was fighting to advocate for the kids.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Well, pain in the butt or advocate for the student, right? Like those things should not have to be different. No, that should be your job.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Exactly. And I felt like it was a battle to advocate for the kids, and it shouldn't be like that. And sometimes I was advocating, you know, you I did work with some difficult parents. Sometimes I was advocating for their kids against them, and then sometimes, you know, against other limitations as well. So I I wasn't expecting that it to be hard to fight for the kids and to fight for what they need. And, you know, a lot of other things you hear. There's a lot of paperwork, a lot of observation, a lot of data, a lot of assessments that I had to, you know, okay, you have they have to spend 45 minutes on I ready math, 45 minutes on iReady reading. They were get, we're given all of these things that kids have to do. And I'm like, okay, well, that make that cuts down on like the actual teaching time that I that I get. So I think that I think that kind of answers the question, how is it different than I expected it to be? And things were always added to the table without like COVID, like I said, was a point where it's like, okay, we're gonna add this assessment, we're gonna add this online, you know, everything, we're gonna add this online program. I'm like, I don't even have time to do that online program. So they would add so many things on top of what we already had, and they would never take anything off the plate.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Yeah, I feel like a lot of those things come from like far away legislation or decisions that are made far away. And then there's like this trickle down, and like you're always, as a teacher, the last person holding the bag, right? It's just like you are responsible for making everyone's dreams come true, everyone's accommodations, all of like it all ends with you. Not to say that there's zero support, you know, you have a SPED team, you have other teachers, you have admin and stuff like that. But when it comes down to it, it's like there's so many decisions that are made far away from you that at the end of the day, you're responsible for implementing. And then there's not a lot of people tracking those to go, like you're saying, like take them off the plate, right? They just kind of keep stacking up. And I'm just so curious, what do you do in that situation? Like to me, so I was a speech language pathologist and I used to go up to each classroom and I would pull my like one or two kids and go sit in my speech office, and I would just like honestly watch in awe as teachers would work a room of 30 kids, like working at all different levels, like way worse after COVID, right? Like the differentiation of like who's in your classroom, um, but still existed pre-COVID for sure. Uh how do you how did you manage that? Like, how did I manage the Yeah, all the different demands that were like placed on you? Yeah, like do you just have to like I've heard some teachers say like they just close their door and teach? Like sometimes you have to like just pick and choose what you have to or what you're going to implement because you literally cannot do all of these things. Did you find ways to like manage all of those needs? Or I mean it sounds like trying to do it was very difficult, like part on your mental health.

Union Protections Versus Texas Reality

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yes. So I had a hard time keeping my mouth shut about these injustices. Like it's just, and it's easy for me to reflect back on it. I remember in the beginning of my teaching career, like I I had one teacher told me, tell me, pick your battles, because I had a student who had C's on their report card, and I didn't know that, like, okay, we give A's and B's. And I was like, okay, I thought we were like giving accurate grades. And they're like, pick your battles. And so I was like called, or I think I maybe gave a D, which I feel different about grades now that I later down the line the line, but this is what the school followed, you know, an A through F program. And I based it on percentages, like that's what I did. That's what I was taught to do. And then I was called to the principal's office because I had a D on a report card. And she was just like, she didn't tell me to change it, but she just said, I want to make sure that you have the kids aren't used to getting D's. So I want to make sure you have the evidence to back it up. And then another teacher is like, oh, you know, mine, like just pick your battles. So basically she would tell me, like, if there was a D, she would just like change it to a C. So it's like when everyone isn't following the same thing, I'm like, okay, well, this is like already making me stand out. So I would start, I would start talking and bringing things up. I like I said, I'd advocate for my students and also for myself. So this was a perk. I know this will come to your the question later about like the culture shock of coming to Texas, but in California, I had a very strong union and a good relationship with our our union president, our union rep at our school. And so when things were not abided by like classroom size limits, I was able to ask for something, you know? So it's like, okay, once I've exceeded my class limit, which I think was like when I was on my 38th or 39th fifth grader, which is insane. One teacher, no other support.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Can we talk about this for a second? Because the is it NEA? I'm maybe saying those letters wrong. They report that the average classroom size right now is 19 students. And I have never met any teacher that only has 19 students. So I'm wondering how this is the average.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

In Texas, when I moved to Texas, and I don't know how it changes, like if it's statewide, that the class limit is set. But at the school I was at and the time I was teaching in Texas, that little minute of teaching, it was this the class limit was like 22. So I know it exists because I had like 21 students when I moved to, and I thought, oh my gosh, this is gonna make it so much easier. That's what I that's what I was thinking. So there I it exists. I've been in that classroom, but in California, my classes were average of 35. Like I was excited if I had 31 students.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

It's it's like definitely growing up in public school in California, like in the 90s, like that was my experience too. Like 30 kids. I remember, like, you know, you give every kid a number based on like, and I like remember being I like remember all my numbers, right? Because I was like, I was always like 30 or 31. Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of funny that we remember our childhoods as being made numbers, but yes, uh, definitely a functional move for a teacher. Um makes sense. Okay, so culture shock, Texas and California.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah. So I was excited about the classroom drop. And when before I moved to Texas, I had teacher friends that were like, Are you sure you want to teach when you move to Texas? Because the cost of living is so much less and you're not gonna be making very much money in Texas. Are you sure like you don't have to teach? Are you sure you want to? And I'm like, you know what? I feel like that will I have this idea that, you know, I will just enjoy teaching for teaching. And I knew I wasn't gonna get paid as much. I did not know how significant the cut was gonna be. So I decided, anyways, yes, I'm gonna teach. I got my top pick of school that I wanted to teach at. Seems like a great school. I moved to the area specifically for that school. So I would be like within a 10, 15 minute range. And I also knew they didn't have a union, but I didn't know how much that would impact. So that was like a huge impact I realized when I started teaching because they could ask them to do things.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Wait, there's no Tex, there's no teachers' union in Texas at all.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

So they have just not like as someone will say it's a union, it's not really a union. They'll say it is, but it's like an outside thing, not affiliated with the school, that they can like advise you on legal stuff if it gets to that point. And I don't have the legal jargon for it, but it's not like it's not a true union, what I'm used to at all. No, they don't, you don't have like something on site. You don't have, you have to go outside of your school and district. It's like a separate entity completely, and it's not a true union. Like they can't, it's so Texas is a free-to-work state, and so they don't have unions. Okay. So basically, and they there's a clause in the teaching contract that gives them the flexibility. I forget the phrase that that it set that it states, but it's like, you know, it doesn't say basically anything we ask you to do, but that's the vibe of it. It's like, okay, or any any other time we need you, you know, that you're required of this. Like just that I can think of off the top of my head. Um, I was asked to take classes for the science of reading. I was asked to take classes for the science of reading with like no compensation or to do it on my own time. Initially they said, like, oh, you'll do it during school hours, but there were no school hours for me to do it. So I basically had to like take an online course, which I never even got to that point because I was maxed out. They would ask me to come in late nights for lots of parents' events. It wasn't the typical, like I was used to open house and back to school night. Those were our usual. They would have other events, they would have weekend events where we were required to be there or strongly advised to be there. They had blackout dates that you weren't allowed to like take off of work, which is interesting, interesting adjustment. But I was like, and I had a wedding to be in, and I was like, okay, this is my family, a wedding in my family. This is like really important. And I it just all these things I was stressing out over, but my meetings or my my prep periods in Texas were not protected. They say they are, but they would they would fill them with meetings, like this day is a team meeting, this day is a meeting with um, you know, you're a new teacher, so you need to do this, this sort of meeting. I didn't really have any prep time and that wasn't protected. So in California, it's like if something when I when I went over my student student limit, I went to my union rep, they said this is what you can ask for, and like that's what I would do. And then here it's just like, okay, you just kind of got to suck it up and do it. Also the hours, the teaching hours, which is something else you don't know, you think you know the teaching experience until you just like go other places, like out of state specifically. Like I think even teachers with a very positive outlook or negative, like you you just get stuck in your world and you think this is how teaching is. But I didn't realize how good I had it until I left. Uh, the teaching hours was an app the school day itself was an hour and a half longer a day. So, like if you do the math, think about like that's an extra school day. That's like an extra day time with students. There were very limited breaks for the kids. They had what they called a working snack. So they were like, they didn't get their first break until lunch recess, which was around one o'clock. So they were in school from 7:30 all the way till one without having play. And I taught elementary school. Also, that means I didn't get a break either, because the working snack, I'm supposed to teach through snack time, you know, like, oh, eat and teach and teach and learn, which I I was like, no, we're not gonna eat and learn. We're gonna eat and take a 10-minute break. And I just made that choice because I just was like hit, I was hitting burnout so hard so fast. Yeah. And so also the pay was a huge thing. The pay was, I mean, just ballpark in California, I was making around$80,000 a year. And then it was like down to 40 or less in Texas.

The Drill That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_00 18:28

I just want to interject, I guess my interjection would be the reason I'm asking you all of these things is I think that teaching is a very like, like if you're not a teacher, you don't get it, right? Like you're not in the classroom, like you don't, you can't have that empathy. And so I want people to hear what it's like because sometimes we have this kind of we just have rose-colored glasses around it where it's like it has to be fine. Like, you know, you just have to be okay as a teacher and you do have to suck it up and like everything's gonna land on you, and like that's just how the world has to work. So we can't fix anything. And we don't really let ourselves sit in how much like struggle there is in that profession. It's the highest out of like all of the professions, it's like the highest profession for burnout, according to like a Gallup study. And it's like we should be paying a lot of attention to this. If the teachers, if both kids, parents, and teachers are all kind of like throwing a flag on the field saying, like, hey, something's not working for me, like we really need to take a look at the classroom and like what the the role of the teacher is. And but it seems like no one wants to have that conversation and no one wants to hear what it's really like. So thank you for sharing, even though it's like negative and probably hard for you to like go back into those feelings, but I appreciate it. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

I when I was ready to leave, I never I remember when I first started teaching and there were teachers that would retire and they would retire mid-year. And I'm like, why can't they just stay the year? I'm like this, you know, gung-ho new teacher that's like, I just want to be here forever until I'm like ready to die, you know, like, and then I'm like, oh, this job is gonna kill me if I stay any longer. It went so dramatically south. Um, I remember being in the shower and just crying. I was crying all the time. I was waking up early to do these trainings that I had to do for a new district. Like, you know, I've been teaching for 10 years. And I I still now I'm learning a new system, new programs, new everything. So it's like I felt like a brand new teacher. I didn't think that was something I didn't realize I was gonna feel because I'm like, I'm still in the same country, you know, I'm still teaching the elementary school. And so it was all of that new teacher stuff. Plus, now I'm a mom. I have two kids, I have a full life. It's not like when I first started teaching, and I think this is very common because I was also a mentor teacher for student teachers when I in my in my time. And so they're like living with their parents still when they're doing their student teaching. It's a completely different world when you're having your lunch made for you by mom and you're going to teach kids, you know, and I see a lot of that online and I never chime in negative. Like I see a lot of TikToks online of like these like 20 teach 20-year-old teachers that are acting like this is the best thing. I don't know why. And I and I do see other teachers in there, like, oh, just give it 10 years. I'm not that type of person. I think it, but I scroll on because it's like I'm not here to like pop anyone's bubble. But sorry, I got a little sidetracked. I was crying in the shower, sobbing all the time. And my husband was like, You are a shell of yourself. You need to do something. You need to quit. And when he said that, I was like, that's not even an option. But like he put it on the table and he's like, you need to take care of yourself. I also wasn't seeing my kids very much. Like I had to get to work so early that the kids were asleep. And then I would pick them up at childcare at like four or five p.m. and make dinner and you know, start to do it all over again. Yes, exactly. So I was with the kids, and actually, when I quit teaching and I told my class, because it was mid year, I did like pom poms in a jar and I dropped them in a jar and he said, These are the hours I spend with you, and the jar's full. And these are the hours that I spend with my kids. And that's how I explained it to them because my principal When I rolled this out and I told her I was quitting, she like wanted it to be very PC and like, oh, don't tell them like you've hit a wall. Don't you know? It's like, we want to keep on the smile and keep on like, oh, I'm just, you know, she wanted me to focus on me, me quitting to stay with my kids. And that was a huge part of it. So I'm like, I'm happy to do that. I don't need to share all the her dirty little feelings of this job. It's not their burden to hold. But I was sobbing all the time and um it was it was a problem. I was having major burnout working before work and working after the kids went to bed from like I just was that's all I was doing. And then I hit a breaking point when there was an active shooter drill that I did not know was a drill. I wasn't informed it was a drill. And it was kind of those one of those moments where your life flashes before your eyes, kind of moments. And um I think I wrote my letter of resignation a day or two after that. That's intense. Yeah, it was it was awful. It was also another thing, like in California, we were front loaded, we were, it was on the it was on the master calendar. Like there was, we could talk about to our students about it. Here they took a different approach and they I missed it in the 50 emails that I get a day where they said, an active shooter drill is coming up. And I missed that. So I didn't even know there was one coming up, and then there was the the lockdown, and it had the protocol for this school was to hide in the bathroom because they had classroom bathrooms, hide in the bathroom with your students. So I'm in the classroom with 20, 21 students. They had there's an automatic flusher, the flusher's going off. I'm panicking, you know, I'm texting my team. Is is this a is this a drill? Every single person, I had three other teachers on my team, every single person replied, I don't know. So no one knew if it was a drill. I had I had kids in the bathroom crying that I don't want to die today. I had kids clutching me. It was, and my husband was out of town. I was like literally having the feeling like, who's gonna pick up my kids today? Like I, it was like one of those moments and I had real feelings. I did stay calm. I did, but I was shaken up. Like when I when we talked to the kids, like they could tell I was reacting like this is real. I didn't scream or panic or anything like that, but I just was kind of like accepting, like, oh wow, I'm a sitting duck in this bathroom right now, and like hope, hope it works out okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Wow, that's terrible.

De-Schooling After Leaving The Classroom

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Yeah. And so I skipped my meetings the rest of the afternoon. Like I texted my team, like, I'm trying not to have a panic attack right now, but I let them know like what I was experiencing. And they were like, Yeah, I understand. Like, I'm like, I've never experienced anything like this where I thought, like, this is it, this is the moment. So yeah, it and then I had a student tell a third, I was teaching third grade at the time, and she told me, um, every morning when the attendance bell rings, I think there's an it's an active shooter. And I was just like, that's also kind of transitioned to where I started thinking about homeschooling is like, wow, this is their regular day experience of there, they hear the chime, they use the same chime for active shooter drill that I do not want my kids to experience. So this, like all in one, I was like, I want to remove myself and my children from this public school system.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

So let's talk about that. When you started homeschooling, I'm curious if you went through like a let's do school at home phase, which a lot of homeschoolers do, where you try, you try to you feel like I'm a teacher, or if you if you haven't been a teacher, you're like trying to do it the way that you have seen teachers do it, right? So you have this kind of like school at home phase, and then you realize quickly that that doesn't work for every family. I mean, sometimes maybe it does, but what was your experience in that transition? Yeah, just go.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

So while I was in the classroom, I'm a very, I'm a I'm a Facebook group person. I like to hear all of the people who are in the thing that I want to do. I like to hear their experiences. So before I even quit teaching, when I knew I was gonna homeschool, I joined every local Facebook group I could of homeschoolers. And a common thing was like I heard the term unschooling. I started hearing like, don't do what you do in the classroom. And I'm like, oh my gosh. So when people met me, they're like, oh, you must know what you're doing. You're a teacher. And I'm like, you must know what you're doing. You've been homeschooling. Like I didn't feel that way, of like it was an asset. I felt like it was a bit hindering because I was so systematic with everything I've done always. Like I had a script, a schedule to the minute, everything that I'm like, oh my gosh, how do I break out of this? So I am still breaking out of that mold, you know, three and a half years later. It is a hard thing to break. And when I started school, my when I pulled my son out, he was in preschool. So he was four and a half. And I started when he was five, like required school, like kindergarten. And I was doing trays, I would prep trays every day of activities, and I just was planning all this stuff and he didn't want to do it. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm not gonna keep planning this if you don't want to do it. But um, I would do circle time and like sit with him and I don't know. It's so funny now because now I also have my youngest is is now the same age he was when we started like our schooling. And we are, I'm it's a totally different approach. When she wants to learn, when she wants to read, I totally follow her lead in this because I can see more down the road. And it's like it's gonna click when it's ready, when he, when they're ready, you know. So I am still unlearning, but I'm on like we last week we schooled in the car for a day because we were out, we were out with friends and doing all this stuff. And so we did mental math in the car and we listened to a story in the car, and we did some school at the library. Sometimes we've done it after bedtime before. That's a hard time. I liked, I need to do things in the school hours. I feel like I once I broke from that mold, I was like, Oh, there's so much freedom to this. You know, having a toddler is hard when you're trying to have a like you have a school age kid. I could pull my hair out sometimes. And so one night I was like, what about if we do school when your sister goes to bed? And he was like, Night school, like this is so fun. I was not expecting him to love it. Now, I don't want to do that every night, but it's like that night, it worked out perfectly. It was a special moment. We're staying up late, we're doing the school, and so I am still learning to like break out of that rigid form.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Yeah, I think that a lot of people struggle with that. I also still struggle with that. And I've been in homeschooling alternative education world for like my oldest is 13 now, and they've my kids have never been to school, maybe they're homeschooled or microschooled. Um, but I still find myself having those like comparison thoughts, like, oh, my kids need to be on grade level or like they need to learn this in a certain time frame or something like that. Do you have any, do you experience any of that still? Like, because you know the progression that is in school and like the schedule. So, how does it feel like when your kids maybe don't meet that, or do you feel that pressure? What is it like?

SPEAKER_02 28:24

So I remember when I was a teacher, and it's not the same thing as a homeschooler coming to public school, but in a sense, like it was a Montessori student coming to a to public school. And I remember him being like way behind. I was like, oh, this kid doesn't know right from left. Like he can't get in line. And in my at that time, I remember thinking, like, oh, this is like he's not prepared. He doesn't know how to walk in a line, he doesn't know how to sit at a desk, and he didn't. But now that I'm on this end, I think he was marching to the beat of his own drum. Is that such a bad thing? Now, when you're trying to assimilate to the school system, yes, it is, because it's incredibly difficult for everybody, but that is not my goal anymore. And so I know if I were to put him in sometimes I think about this hypothetically for fun when I'm laying in bed, if I were to put him in public school, what would his struggles be? And it would be things like sitting still, because there's a lot of time sitting in a desk. He would not be, like he would probably be marked in the red group behind in reading. Like it's a it's a subject he struggles with. He excels in math. I mean, math. He is just soaring. And but I it used to make me feel a little anxious, but I'm like, I know, especially like when I taught kindergarten, I eventually had those kids in fifth grade, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this kid didn't even know his letters, and now he's reading at like, you know, high school reading level. To be able to see the trajectory of kids' education, it's like it puts me at ease. And I still I think it's a very natural thing that will always be a part of me. Like we I think as parents and as teachers, like you're always maybe comparing your kids what they were doing at that age or, you know, what's going on, you know, especially because I'm in my elementary years of homeschooling and that's what I did when I was in the classroom. I know like where you should be at this age. And in some subjects, he is far beyond that. And then in reading, he he struggles with it, but he's you know, he things are clicking. So it's always something I think I'll be working on.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Totally. So that's are there any other mindset shifts you've had to make, like getting away from the set schedule would be one example of a mindset, a mindset shift. Are any others that come to mind that you've kind of had to like pull away from that have come up?

SPEAKER_02 30:31

Um, when I was a classroom teacher, one of my downfalls is now one of my assets as a homeschooler because I like to fall down the rabbit hole. So when I was a classroom teacher, when a student would ask a question and I would be like, oh my gosh, let's find out more about this. Let's get out our laptops and look it up. And we'd go down this rabbit hole. And then guess what? I didn't teach the math lesson, and now I'm behind all the other fifth grade classes. And that was my downfall. So I was always the teacher who was behind everyone else because I would go down the rabbit hole. And I feel like eventually, as I progressed in my career, it's like I would, I would nip the rabbit hole, like, oh, if we have time, we'll write it on the board. And that kind of made me sad. But it's what I needed to do to prepare the kids. Because also when you're being assessed on something and you never got to geometry, now I'm doing them a disservice because even if I would tell them, it doesn't matter, you know, your value isn't found in a test score, they're still stressed because they're like, I've never seen this shape before, or I've never talked about, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

From their perspective, even if we say your value isn't in a test score, there are a lot of factors in their life that say your value is your test score, right? Like when you bring home a bad, a bad grade or a bad score on a test, and your mom looks at you like that and you don't get to go play soccer. Like that is like very communicative of like what we value as adults. So we might say one thing, but the whole system is kind of built around a different set of beliefs that don't quite jive. And I think that kids see through that. But as a homeschooler, you can actually like live into your values. Have you found that? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yes, we can go down the rabbit hole, and that is our thing now. You know, it's like, okay, we're gonna put a pause on this subject and we're gonna learn about your interests. And it's so cool. Like, as I feel like I'm just I'm just entering this stage, you know. My my school age child is seven and a half, and he is just starting to have these interests and want to dive deep into things, and it's just cool to be able to do it. It's just like we are not behind, we're on our own. So, like if I ever had to, I hope I never have to, and I never say never because that's not a good thing to say. You never know what situation you're gonna be in. Um, but if he did ever have to enter a public school, you know, he we're just on a different, on a different road. So it's like where I think of it in my head visually as like in public school, you have to follow the same path. And you it has to be linear. Like that's the goal. That's what you're being rated on. But with us, we're doing loop-de-loops around this tree, and then we're gonna go over here, and then we're gonna go all the way over here, but then we're gonna come back down and it's like we are going all over the theme park, whereas like in elementary school, you know, you have to go. So if if I was all of a sudden to plug him into a grade, it's like, oh, we were actually doing this over here, but this isn't assessed in this grade. So, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Yeah. At at Prenda, we do a lot of inquiry-based learning. We do mastery like for skills like reading and math and stuff, but for lots of the other stuff, it's very what the kids want to learn about. Um, and we we have the phrase that the the question is the curriculum. And we have lots of like on-roads, like like activities and things like that, but they're really just meant as like, are you interested in this? Like we're trying to, as Julie Bogart says, trying to create an itch that the child can scratch, where it's like we're trying to trying to pique their interest, trying to expand their universe so that they can be curious about things because you can't be, you can't ask a question about something if you have no context for it, right? So we have to kind of introduce, but then let the kids explore. Other, the other thing that helps, like we help a lot of teachers that are starting their own microschools and a lot of homeschoolers that are starting microschools. But so everyone's kind of coming from a different perspective. But an analogy that I found helps everyone is that we often use like train conductor mentalities and methods to educate kids where it's like, it's 8 a.m., you get on this bus, I'm in control of the bus, it's going, or not the bus, the train, we are going to this destination, we have to keep this schedule. And if we're not, there's gonna be whistles and bells and like lots of things that like make us get the train on schedule, right? And the train conductor decides where the train is going, right? But if we take a travel agent perspective, where it's like, okay, my role as the adult involved in a child's education is more of a travel agent, where it's like, where would you like to go? Okay, great. You want to go to this destination, and that's okay, it's okay if that destination is a little different than your neighbor's destination. And how would you like to get there? You want to take a steam engine and you then like a bike, and then you want to roller skate, great. We can use those methods and we can go that way to get you to your destination. Whereas another kid might use a car and a train or more traditional methods of travel. But we're all going to important destinations that are meaningful to us individually. And when you can shift out of the, like, I am the train conductor and I have to, I have to, I have to, like, there's so much more joy that can be had in the interaction where you're like, oh, I'm just your guide, your travel agent, where we can problem solve together and we we maybe don't know where we're going quite yet, and we're discovering it together. It's so much more fun.

Mixed-Age Co-Op And Rethinking Grades

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yes. I agree. Something I thought of while you were saying that is another mindset shift is age groups, like learning in mixed age groups. Yes. That is something that I thought, like when I first so I started a co-op, a very successful co-op right now, and I love it. Like today, I taught a lesson on seeds and germination, and we like dissected, dissected our seeds and found the embryo and compared it to our plants, and we sketched and we made models, and it was beautiful. And the kids in my group are age seven to ten. And if they were in public school, some of them would never see each other. Like my my and if we look at the whole, our whole co-op, we have now we have like younger siblings that join us too. We've we've since separated them because their attention span is different. So when I want to do something vocabulary heavy, but we have like we also had our littles, ages, you know, four to six, doing the same thing that is like a little more, a little more play-based. Ours was very hands-on, but less vocabulary heavy. Anyways, to see these same, to see these mixed age groups play together, work together, I used to think it was such a big deal when I was a classroom teacher, like, oh, we're having, oh gosh, today we're having the the third graders on the playground with the fifth graders. And it's like, my son wouldn't even have the friends that he has if he was in public school. They wouldn't have the same recess, they would never see each other's faces. And yet there's, you know, it's so cool to see. And when I started my co-op, I was like, okay, my kid is five years old and I'm looking for five-year-olds willing to join this group. And I, and there were people like, well, my kid's not five, but they're six. And I'm like, sure, we can try it. Well, I have a seven-year-old event, you know, and then I'm like, oh, why can't they work together? And then I realized like that's not a thing. Like, that's a construct that is in the school system. And I know there's reasons for it, for it to function, but um big idea, like huge transition for my brain.

SPEAKER_00 37:08

Yeah, I always think about like, what if we just how could we just change the classroom so it's like age mixed and like people are learning at their own pace? And then it's like the whole like teacher at the front giving lessons kind of has to shift, right? Like there's something there, like in your co-op example is so great because like there's something there for everyone, right? And it might not be the same thing for every child, they might not be completely mastering that vocabulary, right? But the exposure and the idea that just the peer modeling, where it's like, hey, that's what a seven-year-old behaves like when I'm a five-year-old, or if I'm seven, like that's what a 12-year-old acts like, right? And you have that peer modeling. And then going from older kids to younger kids, they get to play the role of mentor and teacher and guide. And that feels very, very edifying and ennobling to one's heart and mind. So I feel like it's just it's potentially more complicated for the adults in the room, but so much more enriching for the student. And so I really love that. Yeah, that is a big construct. What about grades? You mentioned earlier, like you feel differently about grades now than you did before. Like, obviously, you don't have to grade them in homeschool, but like, what are your what are your thoughts on grades?

SPEAKER_02 38:19

So I don't have like the magic answer. I don't know how to fix it, but I do have different thoughts on it. Like I'm a very linear thinker. I am a very mathematical thinker. So when I was grading, I'm just like 89%, it's a B plus. Like very, that's what the that's what the rubric says, that's what your grade is. And I remember a teacher, I don't remember who it was. They said a kid should never, should never have the opportunity to fail. And I'm like, well, if they fail, they fail. You know, that's what it is. And now I can see what that means because I there is no opportunity to fail. We just try again and we try again and we try again. So I, because I don't have to give grades, it's like you're kind of forced to you have to move on eventually. You know, it's like, okay, we're done with this chapter on long division. This is the grade you got for this, and now we have to move on. But in homeschool, it's it's something, you know, I don't think it really translates to public school because I can't, you can't, if you you were taking different classes or something like that, but I now understand what that phrase means. Like you shouldn't be given the opportunity to fail. And like we don't fail at anything because it's like, oh, we're struggling through reading right now. But we're never like you fail, we're moving on to the next thing because we are it's a stepping stone.

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Yeah. Yeah, it's not final. When you first said that, I thought you meant that we shouldn't be allowing kids to fail, we should protect them from failure. But now I see that you're saying something wildly different that like they're in a constant state of failure until they succeed and then they move on. So they're absolutely learning persistence and like perseverance and growth mindset and grit and all of that, because they can't just be like, well, I'm just gonna wait this week out and then get a C on my test, and then there'll be hope hope I understand next week's lesson better, kind of like an escape hatch. But here, yes, exactly. Like in prenda in homeschool, like when you can treat, when you can treat the curriculum as like a just in a mastery-based way, where like we're going to stay with this until we get it, where we're building those strong foundations, then yeah, I totally agree. There's no reason that you would ever just be like, oh, I failed at math this year. Like, no. Yes. We're just not there yet. And we have all of the time and many resources to help us.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yes. And we also just have like, I also have had this aha realization of like, don't underestimate the value of conversation because everything isn't on paper, everything isn't written. But when you're in the classroom and you collect the papers, that's all the evidence that you have. We don't have the time to sit and say, like, what do you understand about the structure of a plant? My seven-year-old, when he did a co-op lesson a few weeks ago taught by another parent, they had to label the parts of a plant. And he literally wrote the word stuff. He drew a plant and he wrote stuff on it because he's being funny. And if I was thinking, if this were handed in in the classroom, this was your science grade, like you would probably get it like a one, or you know, how they grade the primary kids, like you'd get a one. Don't understand the material. And yet if you sit with the kid and talk with him about those things, like he completely understands more than he needs to understand the structure of a plant. So it's just those things that I wish I had in the classroom when I got the chance to talk to those like struggling kids. It's like, wow, you, I'm not measuring you on what I wish I could measure you on.

Resources That Shaped The Shift

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Right. Like so many of those mechanisms are built because like that's the best you can do as a teacher, right? Like you have to have some sort of mechanism where people turn things in and receive feedback and grades because that's how school works. But if you can get away from those schemas and realize, like, oh, you there are multiple ways of expressing or demonstrating this knowledge, you can really do that in a microschool or in a homeschool or at a co-op where the classroom, just the constraints that are are built in just make that an impossibility. An understandable impossibility. But I don't think I mean, I always hope to think that we can like grow in the classroom because you see a lot of people leaving to homeschool, leaving to micro school right now. And I don't think the long-term like move here is everyone just jumps ship. It's like re-like jumping ship is a symptom of like a deeper problem. And if we can address the problems, like I think we can make really beautiful community-based schools. It's just that it seems like there's no flexibility or like innovation that is going to be had there. So, and we've tried, right? It's like all those years in the classroom, it's not like you weren't trying, right? It's just like we've tried for a really long time. So that can be tricky. Okay, we've got to wrap up here. I'm wondering if there are any resources that have made a big impact in your transition from the classroom or in your homeschooling, like books, podcasts, people you follow, like just other like advice for other people that might be in your in your same shoes. Where have you been learning from?

SPEAKER_02 42:52

I learned a little bit of everything. I love Julie Bogart. I had the I had the privilege of being on her podcast like earlier that last year, just being able to talk with her, read The Brave Learner. Anyone who has gone through homeschooling like and come out the other side with the positive experience, whether that be, it's also been people I've met in real life that have been homeschooled, because I feel like you see all the negative, like, oh, I was homeschooled, never do that to your kids. I see a lot of that online. I guess it's what what your for you page is, right? But I've in real life, I've met a lot of, and my husband has met a lot of homeschoolers. Every time he's like, Oh, I met this person, they're homeschooled. And they always stand out for some reason. It's like, oh, they started their business, you know, he met someone who was homeschooled and started their business when they were a teenager, like, and now they have a full-blown lawn business. And then they these unique stories of success, you know, success stories from children that were homeschooled that are now successful adults. Like, I find such value in that perspective right there because I'm like, ooh, tell me everything. Like, what did you love that your parents did? What did you hate? That's where I find the value. So anytime I have like I meet someone that was happily homeschooled, I always want to pick their brains.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

I love it. I love it. Yeah. Same. Okay. And our last question, we also Always ask all of our guests on the Kindled Podcast, who is someone who's kindled your love of learning, your confidence, your self, your sense of wonder, or helped you become like the person you are today? Who is who is that? Who's the kindler in your life?

SPEAKER_02 44:13

So this was a difficult question for me to think about because I kind of lump it into my experience as my elementary teachers. I think that's like a direct reason why I became an elementary teacher. Like I can tell you each teacher in elementary school, the impact they made on me. I mean, my first grade teacher, Mrs. Denisi, she introduced me to my best friend to today. Like we talk every day on the phone. And she just the care that she put into like who's going to show meredith around the school on the first day of school, you know, from her all the way to like my fifth grade teacher who would make personal connections and have like a journal to write back. That's another thing I took into the classroom. So I feel like I took little nuggets from every elementary teacher that I had, implemented them in the classroom, and now implement them with my kids. And it's like crazy the impact a teacher can have on you. That I was like, you know, I'm 38 years old and this was so long ago. And I still remember these things they did for me. And so that is truly why I loved school so much at that age that it is why I wanted to become a teacher. And even though I got burnt out, it's like I know that that is just what I love to do.

Prenda And How To Start

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. And thanks for coming on the Kindled Podcast. This has been such a fun conversation. It has been. Thank you so much, Katie. I appreciate it. It was nice to meet you. The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy to start and run an amazing microschool based on all the ideas we talk about here on the Kindled Podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media at Prenda Learn. And if you'd like more information about starting a microschool, just go to Prenda.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep Kindling.