Episode 93: School Choice Matters. A Conversation with Morgan Camu.

We explore why more parents are rethinking the default school path and how real support makes school choice easier. From being mislabeled in school to helping scale education choice, our guest shares how families can find better-fit options.

• A school choice journey from Taiwan to Florida to a microschool
 • Why parent-led “kitchen table” decisions lead to better outcomes
 • How Outschool.org supported families during COVID
 • What parents want: safety, wellbeing, rigor, flexibility, and time
 • Why choosing school year by year improves fit
 • The concept of “firing your school” and choosing intentionally
 • How unbundled learning expands access to classes and opportunities
 • Texas ESA insights: timelines, funding, and waitlists

About our guest
Morgan Camu is Head of Programs at Outschool.org, where she leads program design, strategy, and implementation to maximize the impact of educational choice programs. Her team partners with state education agencies to provide technology-enabled, human-centered solutions to over 125,000 students each year. Her team has also supported 45 grantees advancing enrichment opportunities for marginalized learners and served more than 30,000 students during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Previously, Morgan served as Chief Academic Officer at a global education company serving nearly 70 school districts across the country, where she led efforts to recruit, select, and support 2,000 international teachers from more than 35 countries. She began her career as a high school science teacher in rural North Carolina.

She holds a doctorate in Education Leadership from Harvard University and a B.A. from Duke University.

Connect with Morgan
Outschool.org
Texas Education Freedom Account Program
The Texas Finder Tool
School Choice Arkansas
Outbridge South Carolina

About the podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.

Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.

Got a burning question?
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Transcript

A Parent’s Fear Of Getting It Wrong

SPEAKER_02 0:00

There's a lot of anxiety around, I just don't want to mess this up, right? This is like my favorite tiny human. And I really just want to make sure that they love learning and that they become a lifelong learner. And if they sort of have the reassurance from other success stories, the information that they need to be able to continue to like explore alternative options. I think that is going to be so beneficial to parents and they can offer that up to non-full-time enrolled public school kids. Like, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Hello and welcome back to the Kindled Podcast. I'm Kelly Smith, and I'll be your host today. We'll be talking to Morgan Camus, Morgan's head of programs at outspool.org, where she leads program design, strategy, and implementation to maximize the impact of educational choice programs. Her team partners with state education agencies to provide technology-enabled, human-centered solutions to over 125,000 students each year. Her team has also supported 45 grantees, advancing enrichment opportunities for marginalized learners, and served more than 30,000 students during the COVID-19 pandemic. Previously, Morgan served as chief academic officer at a global education company, serving nearly 70 school districts across the country, where she led efforts to recruit, select, and support 2,000 international teachers from more than 35 countries. She began her career as a high school science teacher in rural North Carolina. Morgan holds a doctorate in educational leadership from Harvard and a BA from Duke University. She's passionate about math, she's passionate about learning, she's really good with parents and families and has done a lot of work. Getting to know parents and understand what they want. So I think you're gonna love this conversation as we talk about what's going on in the school choice landscape today, what's happening specifically in Texas, but we'll talk about nationwide as well. And with that, Morgan Camus. Alright, Morgan Camus, welcome to the Kids with Podcast. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

It's so great to be with you, Kelly. Thanks.

A School Choice Childhood Story

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Okay, we're gonna have a fun conversation. I know you and I have had fun paths through this whole world of helping parents figure out what's right for their kids. If you're a parent out there listening, this is gonna be a great episode for you. So, Morgan, tell me a little bit about you, though. I you have a great personal story. I know we've talked in the past, and your background is art from children, like right behind uh you on Zoom. You you've dressed it up today and uh you look you look very, you know, professional. Great job. But uh tell me a little bit about you and just how did you get to this point where you know you're helping kids and families?

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yeah. So where we sit right now, I always say it's like the intersection of kitchen table conversations and state school choice implementation teams, which was kind of like a weird but really wonderful spot to be in. And like all good stories, there's never a straight line. So I would say I didn't have the language for it until recently, which is probably like a miss on my part. But I'm actually a school choice kid myself. So I was actually born in Taipei, Taiwan, and we moved to the States when I was six or seven, and my mom is Taiwanese, my dad is American. They should have probably taught me English before I showed up stateside, but you can't do it all right the first time. So I think in terms of school choice, they moved to the states to bring me into the US education system. So that was like a very deliberate choice. So that was like change number one. They bumped along the way when they showed up in Florida and tried to find like the right educational situation for my brother and I, a few misses, lots of learning, and then finally settled on a micro school, sort of a private Montessori micro school in, you know, sort of Southeast Florida. And so that was sort of change number two. And then that school was wonderful, but it ended in fifth grade. And so then they were like, it's time to make another sort of kitchen table round of conversations. They identified a school in a neighboring county and really thought that that could be the best fit for me that required moving. So packing up sort of all of our family's belongings, taking a bet, deciding that this school could sort of unlock the love of learning that I had wanted and they had wanted for me. So that was change number three. And so we as a family had a lot of those sort of navigation, school choice, what's the best fit for my perfect and precious child conversations ourselves. And so as a kid, I did that. And then I have also seen all sorts of like permutations of school choice as an educator and a practitioner myself. So I taught in public school, I worked in DC public schools, which is a really big urban school district. So oversaw sort of a network of human capital strategies at the school district level and then moved into serving private and charter and district schools when I was in a role that oversaw sort of global education and dual immersion program. So school choice as a practitioner. And then I'm like a school choice parent, which is just wild to say. So I homeschool our two boys, and that has been just like a really rich journey. And I feel like I've gotten the front row seat in this like pure, you know, plural, pluralistic sort of education system. So in all of those seats, I feel like I've seen school choice and really benefited from the options that my family and yeah, my family and my colleagues have been able to make sense of.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Morgan, it's an incredible story. I mean, if you think about, and this is my I know my parents sometimes listen to this podcast, so this is no slight to me. I think it was very much generational that parents sort of move somewhere that they think has good have good schools, right? That's my job. I try to get in, get a house in this neighborhood, and then you just send your kid. You don't really think about it. Uh, it's it's hard to really know what's going on. I mean, the fact that your parents were having these like you're calling kitchen table conversations much earlier, I think, than than most of the world really says a lot about them. It may say a lot about you too. I mean, maybe you were particularly per precocious. What were they solving for? I mean, what were they really trying to do with with your education?

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I think it's a little bit of an immigrant story, right? So my mom probably, you know, only went through parts of middle school, right? So Taiwan back in the day doesn't have the sort of lasered-eyed equivalent of a tiger mom's educational focus that it probably has today. And so she herself did not get to benefit from all of the educational options that she probably wanted as a learner and wanted better for her children. And so they decided, you know, when they got married that they were at some point going to move back and really take advantage of the US education system. And you get instant sort of frontline feedback. They sent a kid who didn't speak English, right? So Mandarin was my first language. They probably put me into the easiest either pre-K or maybe kindergarten at that time, like elementary school. And it was a mess, right? So I was immediately labeled, and this is no ding on the practitioners and the teachers at that school who were probably just trying to do the right thing. They just didn't know what to do with a Mandarin-speaking kid. They didn't have the resources or maybe the special education teams or, you know, English language learning teams to be able to figure this out. So I was labeled a special ed kid. And so I just remember, you know, the first couple of experiences in school, like I would be over here with colored pencils while the rest of the kids were learning whatever they were supposed to be learning. And you come home with like a very sad, dejected six-year-old. And every parent feels that. Like in whatever sort of format, whatever language, whatever circumstance that happened in that day, your child has returned to you and they're a fraction of sort of what you sent out that morning into the world. And so I think they believed that I was capable. I think they believed that they could try a few more things and that there was an opportunity ahead where I could be the learner that I was destined to be. It just took a little bit of effort and they didn't have deep community, you know, in Florida. It was just sort of a new place to set up shop. Um, and so they probably relied on whatever resources they had at their fingertips to try and make just like the next right best decision. And we got there. I mean, it all worked out, and I, you know, I'm so proud of the educational opportunities that I've had as a kid. And then that forms sort of like I said, my lens as a practitioner and being a teacher myself, and then the way I educate my boys.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, I think there's some deep lessons here for parents that are listening. I mean, the curiosity, noticing what's going on. I mean, I think as you came home from school and you had these experiences, it's very easy to dismiss or discount what a six-year-old says, right? So kudos to your parents for noticing and for that curiosity. And then on top of that, I think an awareness that there are options, that you don't have to just be a passive participant. I think so many parents really have, we've all grown up in this world where decisions that that decision was made hundreds of years ago. Like I don't really get a say in this, right? In in my kids' education. And so for them to say, no, there's there's things we can do. And then finally, the third is just the gumption to do it. I mean, that's incredible, to move across continents, to change schools, to do different approaches. And I love that microschools showed up in your journey and that now homeschools, and I know you're big into co-ops, and you've taken all of this forward and and created this opportunity, not just for yourself, but but really for lots and lots of families. Can you talk a little bit about your work right now with outschool.org and can you just kind of teach people what you guys are actually doing?

Outschool.org And Pandemic Scholarships

SPEAKER_02 9:23

For sure. So I had had all of these sort of educational choice experiences. So when outschool.org sort of showed up right when COVID hit, so we're going back March of 2020 when the world was really upside down. I really saw this as an opportunity to take like one more front row seat about an educational alternative that I didn't have that much insight into, which was online learning. And I was like, here's a flavor of the educational choice sort of ecosystem that I want to get really curious about and see how I might be able to be useful, but also learn a whole lot around how kids learn best. So outschool.org was founded in March of 2020. Um, and it was founded in response to the pandemic. So many of your listeners, and I know that you know, outschool.com is the virtual marketplace where kids can take just about any online class under the sun that tickles their fancy. So everything from like core academic content to like social emotional learning to like sneaker design and tap dance, like really anything in between. And what happened is overnight, all the kids in the country became online learners. And outschool.com had this beautiful platform of these fantastic educators and the infrastructure to deliver online learning at a scale that had been successful and could accommodate an extra 10,000 educators, could accommodate hundreds of thousands of new kids. And what the founders at outschool.com knew, which many of us know, is that there's lots of families out there that cannot afford 20 bucks a class per kid. It's just, it is cost prohibitive. And so they stood up this nonprofit at Outschool.org and I connected with our CEO, Justin Dent, and they said, we're gonna go ahead and like give away these like emergency scholarship sort of grants, knowing that everybody right now, every parent needs some help, right? And for any parent who just can't afford it, 300 bucks, no questions asked, just raise your hand. And we were the team, Justin and I, uh, to figure out how to help families like spend those dollars down because outschool.com has thousands, tens of thousands of classes. And so that's where we really started to build our family and community support, navigation, guidance, like muscles, right? So we were navigating families who had these sort of outschool.com credits and said, you know, could we help? Tell me about your kid. What are you looking for? Can I be your personal shopper? That's essentially what it was. So we were personal shoppers for parents during the pandemic who really did not even know where to start to get like that first good class. And we did that, you know, over the course of 18 months, got really, really good at talking to parents, having them brag about their kids, going back to them and saying, I know you said you like dinosaurs, but maybe your kid would also be interested in in STEM or coding or Legos, or, you know, you're really confused around what third grade math looks like. Here are two teachers that we think could be a good fit. Like, what do you think about trying them out? So we really built those navigation chops, like I said, with the pandemic. And then, you know, that sort of sunset, but then we had built this pretty durable skill. And that was really when sort of ESAs and microgrants were sort of exploding. And so the folks over at the Virginia Department of Education had these sort of learning tutoring grants that were sort of COVID money being repurposed as tutoring grants for kids who might just need that extra support. But again, families had this money and a huge long list of tutors that they could not make heads or tails of, right? All they knew is that their kid needed some extra help, but how in the world to sort through 2,000 math tutors within, you know, a 20-mile radius. So then we took our muscles and we started building that in Virginia and help families really utilize those funds. And it really was just an opportunity of like meeting the moment. And so today we are the only organization to scale sort of our technology and family support systems across multiple ESA states. So it's just wild six years later, we're supporting over 200,000 kids access over a hundred million worth of funding with the tools that we have built through technology and then also just our like very human family engagement services.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Amazing. And the scale is just overwhelming. I I love what you guys are doing. It's it's been interesting to watch this journey. And we've had Amir on our show, and he and I have been friends. So I think our audience knows about Outschool, but outschool.org has really become its own thing, and it's fascinating what you guys are doing. Can you just talk? I I would be curious. You guys have worked with, well, that's a lot, hundreds of thousands of parents. What changes are you seeing? I mean, this world, I don't think any of us could have anticipated, first of all, COVID, but also just the widespread, I mean, millions of dollars in you know, funding available for parents to make choices. Can you talk about how that kitchen table conversation is shifting over time as more and more parents kind of learn what's going on and what their options are?

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Yeah. So I'm not a macro economist, but I remember enough to know that supply and demand tells you a lot. So I would say, like across the states that we work in. So right now we're in Texas, in South Carolina, in Arkansas, and so serving, you know, all of their ESA and even sort of like just broadly school choice students. So even we we work beyond ESAs as well. But school choice broadly, I think there's an increase in demand from parents, and then there's like an increase in supply, right? So double-sided marketplace, you need both of those things to sort of happen in tandem, and there's like a lot of magic in that like inflection point. So, in terms of like demand, I think in a lot of the states that we work in, the desire for school choice programs exceeds funding, right? So South Carolina right now is on a wait list and they had their application open earlier this spring. And we're seeing that just like across the board, right? So Florida has so many families who are like clamoring for one of those programs, and they're getting, you know, very close to a very sizable number of kids in these school choice programs. And we're seeing, in addition to sort of school choice, there's a lot more movement on like the open enrollment front with 22 states with like open enrollment policy. So I do think that the demand is coming from parents who are saying, you know, to your earlier point, which is I know that historically I've just sort of had to be a passive consumer and I am supposed to go to this like assigned school based on my address, but I'm getting sort of a lot more information and I my demand for other options is sort of leveling itself up into new statutes, new regulations, new laws. And that has become sort of like an up and to the right curve exponentially, you know, since COVID. So there's new ESA programs. Texas came on board this year. You talked to Colleen, it's going great. The application window is still open. So, you know, those numbers continue to climb. So I think that's part of the demand. I also think that there's like a proportion of the population around homeschooling and micro schooling and unbundling that is also like a pretty energetic input into this, right? So, homeschoolers, I think ever since COVID have become more diverse, they've become more secular, they are becoming increasingly creative and sort of at the innovation tip of how can you assemble an education that feels holistic and comprehensive and rigorous in all the right ways. Um, and they become like very discerning and leading from the front around like what type, what parents can demand, right? So, like what is what is the what is the sense of possibility that parents can sort of stand behind is this like homeschooler piece, which has been really exciting, really exciting to see. So I'll stop there. I think we have like worries from parents about what that actually like sounds like, but I would say like the demand for parents and especially this homeschool population, micro school population has really been cool to see.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Well, you can't just dangle a story and then expect me to start. So what yeah, tell me, tell me about parents. I mean, what are they saying? What do they want? What are you hearing as you're out? I mean, Arkansas, South Carolina, Virginia before that, and now Texas. I have more Texas questions as well. I think a lot of people are curious about that. But you're in lots of places. What are you running into? I mean, what do parents want?

SPEAKER_02 17:09

We love hearing from parents. Um, I was on the phone this morning, you know, talking to them because it's just such a great position to be in, is you don't have to guess. They'll just they'll tell you exactly what it is that is worrying them or exciting them around their kitchen table. So it's pretty, you know, not um revolutionary. They want the same things that I would imagine that you or I or any parent wants for their child, right? So in big studies, I know Titan has done lots of reports and surveys around what homeschool or sorry, um, what families are looking for who are looking for alternative options. But I would say like it's a combination of like safety, right? And I think that has taken its own broader interpretation of not just like physical safety, but emotional safety, right? And so we have parents who my generation who remember, you know, Columbine, who have these like very um in-time, visceral, lived experience of what it means to feel unsafe in schools. And I had a parent call me up and say, the school just made a policy where my little one can't wear his like favorite light up sneaker shoes. And we all remember those shoes, right? They like they light up as you walk and it's just so darling to see. But they did it from a safety perspective. Like we don't want them to be noticed when there is like a lights off, you know, safety even drill or even like something even more scary than that. Like we just don't want children to be found that way. And these light up sneakers could be like a really sort of like, you know, problematic indication. And that just like gives you chills. Like you don't think about that because they're just such cheerful darling sneakers.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Well, because what that means now is that little boy is walking around like looking for some sort of shooter everywhere he goes in his life, right? Like anytime he wears those shoes, he's now thinking about is this, you know, is this safe? Am I okay at a movie theater? Or I mean, it's a crazy world, but also, yeah, it's almost like we're we're training. My mind goes back. My mom was in traditional schools out here in Arizona as a kid, and they did, she remembers doing nuclear Holocaust drills, right? So get under your desk, and there was a certain way they wanted you to, as if that was somehow gonna help in the wake of a like a nuclear bomb. But it's you know, but what she got from it was this very fearful message that this world is a dangerous place, and these Russians are out there that are gonna, you know, bomb, bomb all of us. And there's something about the psychology. I mean, I'd love to see what psychologists actually say about this, but it's interesting that that's showing up in these parent conversations. You know, as I send my kid into the school, it's like I'm thinking about their physical safety, I'm thinking about their psychological well-being.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yeah, and I don't think it's incumbent just on public schools, right? Like bad things happen in private schools too. Like anytime you have an institution where you have like a population of any human, right? Like they're just it is problematic. And so I think back to your point, like parents want they want the physical safety. They want to make sure that their child, you know, are um emotionally safe, right? With bullying and drama, which again like permutates across all different types of schooling options. But these are just kind of the things that parents are looking for. Like their kid is coming home and for whatever reason they are feeling unsafe, or their kid is coming home and they're feeling unchallenged, right? And so academic rigor, they want their child to continue to be pushed. And sometimes we'll hear from parents like that's hard for any awesome educator to do in a class of 25, right? I was that educator. It's really hard to continue. You can differentiate all day long. And yet, if you have that like exceptional or twice exceptional kid in the classroom, it just requires like expertise in like instructional delivery and practice that, you know, isn't across all classrooms, across all schools, public or private. So I think, you know, the academic rigor, the safety, it's then people want like other things. They just want time with their kids, right? And so the idea of the eight-hour school day and the Carnegie unit comes in and they're like, why does it have to be so long? And then some parents want the day to be even longer. They need the pre-care and the aftercare. So it really is like a mixed bag. But I do think that, you know, as we move into sort of like this modern workforce, a lot of families are getting flexibility in how they show up in their work life, right? A lot of families are working from home, a lot of families as consumers, we are used to being able to filter and toggle and select from like multiple choice options. And so I think this like generation of parents who are coming up are just used to being able to titrate experiences as a consumer from the services industry in a way that they would like reflect it in how they choose a school for their kids. So, you know, these are the conversations you know, parents have and we have them all the time, never sort of prescribing a choice. Sometimes, you know, we we we love all of the school choice options. And so we often will talk about well, have you thought about this public school transfer? Have you thought about this charter school? And not always just thinking about private or homeschool in this like, you know, ESA space, but just making sure that parents know that we are hearing them, it is valid. Let's see if we can't give you just a few more tools. In your tool belts that you can continue this conversation with your own family around your own table.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Yeah. And Morgan, I'm I'm so glad you did this because I think sometimes people, even like with us, we're out helping people start micro schools all the time. And these are traditionally, they typically are privately run, although they don't have to be. School districts, welcome. If you're listening and you're running a school district, please let me know. We'd be happy to work with you. That said, uh, you know, I think people think I'm out somehow throwing stones. If I'm a teacher and I have 25 kids, this idea of differentiation I think is powerful, but it's there's a there's actually a limit to what's even possible, right? So the this question of have we taken this job and made it literally impossible. I mean, to think about 25 kids with each of their parents having maybe a different concern on their mind and each of those kids having a different need, and I still only have one mouth, you know, I can only say one thing at a time. There's and and at the same time, look at the district level. If I'm in charge of, you know, a whole district out here, my district's big, there's 58,000 kids. So if I've got 58,000 kids and I'm trying to make sort of a one decision for all of them, you get very quickly to this point where it's fully impossible to do to do that work. And so a lot of what this is is not a critique at all. It's just saying, let's decentralize decision making, let's open this up so that individuals can create inside of it of a system that will allow more options, higher likelihood, I guess, of each parent, each of those kitchen table conversations turning into an outcome, well, like yours, you know, that you've grown up as a wonderful, well-adjusted person that's making a big contribution in the world. So to, you know, to take it back to your personal story. Yeah, any any thoughts on that? I mean, I I know you have a lot of grace and you've spent time as a teacher, you've been inside of school districts and I mean there is school districts are incredible.

SPEAKER_02 23:52

I mean, I've worked in them, I've worked with fantastic leaders and like helping think of how to build systemic, high-quality teaching and learning in every classroom. And our school district superintendents, I mean, that is a thankless job. Like it is so hard to make sure that every child is getting, you know, a quality education. And then you have sort of the workforce piece of it of all of these educators and other sort of, you know, related school providers and service providers all in the building trying to make this work. It is just such a blunt and hard instrument. So I like again, like I said, a lot of parents are very happy in their public school. Like there are just as many conversations of a parent saying, I don't know what I want to do quite yet. I'm just here to explore my options. And the next year they re-enroll in their public school. Right. And I think in those conversations, we what we do and often is feels very effective, is we say you don't have to make a five-year decision. You don't have to make a decision of where your kid's gonna be from K to five. Like, I know that's how we group schools is by these like big grade bands, but like just take it a year at a time and just know that you can always call us up. And if there's a new charter school opening up in your district, or if there's a new open enrollment policy, or if there's a new magnet school, like we are here to help you make sense of what those options are because as powerful as these school choice programs are, they are really hard for parents to internalize and operationalize. And so having the ability to come back in three weeks, come back in three months. Like this does not have to be the be-all end-all conversation. And then sometimes, you know, to your point, like parents need sometimes just like a sturdy backstop to say, I'm gonna fire my school. Like that is that is an outrageous act of courage. So one of the classes that I took in my graduate school program was with the Clay Christensen, right? And I know you've had Michael Horn on the podcast and you know, this disrupting innovation and disrupting education. And Clay would tell us in class, he's like, there is a moment where in this services-based industry where you can just say, like, I've decided to fire my school. And that is like a decision point. And then you need to do the work and all the, you know, follow-up steps of like, how am I going to think of what school I'm going to hire next? Like, what's the job to be done for this for the next school that is going to have the privilege of educating my like magical child? But again, it goes back to this idea that there are so many sort of like personal conversations as to what leads to both to the firing of the school and also to the hiring of the next school that parents often do in isolation with each other, you know, you know, around a kitchen table, or the generosity of strangers on Facebook pages, you know, because that's also a real place that parents go to get advice. And we're just another extension of that because of our partnerships with the state, we're able to say, like, we're here for you. We're on the other end of the bat phone. Let us know however we can be useful. And at the end of the day, we serve parents, right? So whatever it is that these parents want, we're here to help.

Unbundling School And New Options

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I love it. I love it. And yeah, I've been watching this happen, this kind of conversation just building online and so many people finding answers to their questions. And uh, yeah, I mean, the Facebook groups, Reddit, there's different places where people will go. As you're talking, I'm I'm thinking about all the people that have participated in microschools. You know, I get to meet thousands of parents that you know make this choice for their kids. And I I totally agree with you. I think it's it's a win if you consider your child, you really get curious about what their needs are, and then you make a deliberate intentional decision. If that decision is a micro school, great. But if not, totally fine. I'm happy equally happy that you've thought about it and chosen for a variety of reasons. In fact, my own kids have done, you know, micro schools, but they've also done other settings too. So at different times and seasons in their lives, and I love your advice about one year at a time and what's best for you right now. One insight I would say, I guess I I want to get your your thoughts on this is when I showed up with the the microschool idea in 2018, there were, well, there were seven kids in my first class. So me and six others, six other groups of parents that were you know, they kind of saw the vision, they were like, I could see why this would be good. I like the group, I want them doing projects together. I don't need it to be a big room, but I don't need it to be, I don't really want it to be just them by themselves with a computer. So it's it's this happy medium. And there were, you know, small number of parents that really got it. And then once we started, over the two years that I did it, I saw lots more parents that, you know, they were like, wait, what is this? Like they needed to meet the kids, ask them questions, kind of see it in action, talk to the other parents. And interest grew a lot. You know, I I think it's just one of these adoption curve kind of things where you have some people that are ready to jump right away, and maybe that's the severity of the pain that they're experiencing and their their willingness to do the firing that you talk about. I don't know. Any thoughts about the kind of the motion and where we are in that adoption curve? Because sometimes I think we're still at the very, very beginning of this.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Oh no, I think I think it's gonna get bigger no matter what, right? I think there are ways in which like secrets out that are hard to kind of put the genie back in the bottle. So I think again, like state actors are pushing these forward across the country. And then we have, you know, TBD and what's gonna happen with this like federal tax credit program that could, again, like bring this version of school choice and disposable income and parent power into all 50 states. I do think that as parents start becoming more savvy as to like what to listen for, they are now hearing consistently alternative education success stories. So, you know, what used to be maybe, you know, one homeschooling family or one unbundler or one, even like 20 years ago, that one charter school family. Like we forget that we have seen different waves of school choice over the decades. I think it's becoming more, more prominent and more repeatable. And I feel like patterns are starting to emerge where parents are becoming a little bit more sophisticated and saying, like, it's not just this one rogue homeschool parent that is the exception, not the rule. And so I think they are bolstering their curiosity. And then now there are organizations out there who are consistently sharing those success stories, right? And I think that is in a lot of ways going to be so beneficial to parents because at the end of the day, there's a lot of anxiety around, I just don't want to mess this up, right? This is like my favorite tiny human. And I really just want to make sure that they love learning and that they become a lifelong learner. And if they sort of have the reassurance from other success stories, like wherever they look, the research is trying to keep up as best they can with these alternative models and giving parents who are again like savvy consumers the information that they need to be able to continue to like explore alternative options. And then now we see, especially in some of our in our states that we work in the ESAs, districts are also starting to like come to the party. You know, so I, you know, we're in South Carolina where charter schools and district schools can like unbundle their services and become providers. It's happening in Texas right now. The vendor application just opened, and there are some very, and they're friends of mine, like very innovative superintendents who are out there being like, this is not a like a zero or a one sort of binary decision. Like, I will take part-time enrollment. I will take a la carte classes, I will do whatever it takes to, for the good of the common good, like bring kids who want a seat in my AP Spanish or my chemistry class. Like, we want to serve as many kids as we possibly can. And if I am under enrolled in this class, great, you know, because we often forget that districts have an infrastructure of like really cool classes.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

But that like cannot be replicated in private schools or micro schools. Like they have some of the best in-class science labs, the best in-class 3D printing labs, the best-in-class workforce development CTE classes, you know, and if they've got extra seats in their HVAC or welding or graphic design class and they can offer that up to non-full-time enrolled public school kids, like that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Incredible.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

You know, and so as much help as we are providing families, our team often gets brought into conversations with district, you know, cabinet level folks who are like, where do we fit and how can we innovate? And could you give us some guidance on how we can offer some of the wonderful things that we do to more students and families? And like, again, supply and demand. That's like a really beautiful grading of resources and desire.

Texas ESA Explained Step By Step

SPEAKER_00 32:35

We feel it every time someone comes to me and says, Yeah, yeah, I just want them to do orchestra. You guys have an orchestra. It's like, no, micro schools don't have an orchestra. Like, there's 10 kids, and there's an incredible engaging learning environment where we're learning reading and math and science and social studies, and we're doing an awesome job. But to do orchestra, I mean, if the school would allow these kids to participate in orchestra, that would be incredible. There's all the different things that yeah, I I love this idea of unbundling and then allowing parents to put together what works for them. We've been dancing around Texas a little bit, Morgan. I want to I want to get into it. Let's like take you on a journey to let's I don't know, pick pick a spot. Let's go to El Paso, Texas. You you guys have been doing events all over the state.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

You're West Texas, you're meeting a parent for the first time that has no idea about any of this, right? And they don't know, for sure, don't know about the scholarship. I mean, can you just sort of give us an example of what that conversation might look like? Like let's play it out from the perspective of this parent.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

For sure. We were in El Paso on March 7th, so I don't even have to imagine what that looks like. Um, so I will say that for many parents, many Texans, they had heard rumblings of this program, right? I think you know, it it didn't just confine itself into, you know, you and I sort of group chats. Like there are lots of Texans who were eagerly sort of awaiting and had done the hard work of notifying their state representatives that this is something that they really wanted. So that's great. You know, those families were going to follow the bill and apply right when the thing opened. The work that we do as outschool.org in Texas is we want to make sure that even if you don't have the social capital, even if you aren't in the right Facebook groups, even if your kid is not in the right soccer team and like you had no idea that this thing was happening, that you two know with there is a full-throated invitation that you should apply if you want to. And if you want to, our team is here to like break it down for you into like bite-sized pieces. Come back if you don't understand, right? Like this is like an evergreen sort of opportunity. And then if you want to apply, like we're here at your elbow walking you through the application process if you need it. So the Texas ESA, like I said, the application still remains open. So any Texans out there who want the bite-sized understanding and are listening right now, like please go to the Texas Comptrollers website and apply. You'll find our contact information. I'm happy to answer any questions that you have or help you apply if you so desire. So the program is an ESA, meaning that families have the opportunity to apply to receive funds. And depending on if they want to go the private school route or essentially like the homeschool route, even though that has some like interesting nuances to it, they get public funds to then use towards sort of like tuition fees and a whole host of products and services that are deemed eligible by the comptroller's office. And so, you know, the only thing that you were sort of ineligible from is like you cannot stay in a public school, right? Those seats have already been paid for. You don't need additional dollars to attend a public school or a charter school. This is if you want something else. And so the application, you apply, um, you know, Odyssey has been just a fantastic administrator of this whole application process, and they are the wallet provider, and so they're making sure that the infrastructure for the application and the spending and the marketplace is like above board and excellent. So once the application period closes, there is going to be sort of a priority group sort of sorting hat. And the families who are invited to sort of accept their award will happen sort of in late April, early May. And then families will then have to make the decision of like, well, where do you want your child to go? Like, what are what are the options that are most appealing to you? And so families have sort of throughout the summer to make their school selection choices, and then the money is loaded into their accounts over the summer, and then they use that to pay tuition and fees and the rest of it if they have money left over for tutoring and therapy and instructional classes and technology and all the other things that make for like a well-rounded, robust education. Um, I would say like the interesting nuances of Texas, um, and every state can be its own snowflake, right? They can make it however they want. And it's our job to be able to interpret those nuances and those like, you know, very important caveats for families, is that they have very different funding levels depending on your kid. So, you know, in other states like South Carolina or Arkansas, like regardless of what your kid comes in with, whether it is a disability, whether it is a homeschool or private school sort of designation, everybody kind of gets the same amount. But Texas, just to keep it interesting, you know, put together a sophisticated fifth grade math problem where every kid could get somewhere between, you know, two and thirty thousand dollars, depending on their like unique circumstance. And then once all the applications are in, then comes like the fun math problem of figuring out like how far does the billion dollars go and how many kids will be welcomed into this program. So that's sort of where we are right now, just trying to figure out what is the denominator of applications that are gonna be um received between, you know, when it opened February 4th and when it will close on March 31st.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

It's incredible. You guys must be doing a great job because the applications have been far more than I expected. I mean, I think everybody's agreed at this point that the money's gonna run out. So they're gonna they're gonna use the formula for the sorting hat and to sort of go down the tiers and allocate these scholarships to people. You said a number 30,000. I mean, that's really a specific case, right?

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Yeah, very specific, yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Very specific disabilities. I I want to say general education, if you're gonna go to a private school, micro school kind of thing, it's something like$10,000.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Am I$10,484? I think just for like, you know, nice round even numbers.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Let's just count it all. It's a formula tied to it's it's some percentage of what the state would spend on your kid if they went to a and just to like couch this, I think some people are worried that like this is somehow hurting the system. I mean, if your kid is in a traditional public school, there's money that comes from lots of different places. It's the local, state, federal government, it adds up to something like$15,000 or$16,000 per kid. That's general ed. So, you know, for for you to go and take the 10 or 10, 5 or whatever it is, you're saving taxpayers money by doing that. I just I want to sort of absolve you of guilt for for that. Find what's best for your kid, and it's actually a more efficient option on the whole. That may be a controversial take. I know people disagree with the math on that, but that's roughly the the numbers. And then there's this other category you're talking about. And if you're out there as a homeschooler, I mean homeschoolers are scrapping and they're trying to find resources and doing all these things.$2,000 in your pocket to find curriculum and and you know, make sure you can deliver the homeschool education of your dreams, basically. I mean, it's it's really an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, I agree. I mean, the demand I think exceeded our expectations as well. You know, the the state that we're operating in that's even close. Arkansas's 50,000 and that's a lot, right? So we get the the messages from parents and the phone calls from parents. And so we're just delighted. I think last count we're at like over 240 applications. 40,000 applications, 240,000 applications. And we've still got 11 days to go.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 39:49

But you know, that's been just absolutely gratifying to see.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

It really is coming from all corners of the state. It is coming across all these different like priority groups. So again, like the priority groups are sort of based on a combination of your child's sort of disability, unique ability, and also your family income. And so those criteria give you priority in the sorting hat. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

So who's going to get it? Who will likely get these scholarships? I mean, who's tier one?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

I don't know how far down the priority groups we're going to go. Um, and I think we're still waiting for the final whistle to blow on March 31st. But I will just say like broad stats about well, who are these families that are coming and raising their hand and saying, you know what? Like, I'm gonna give this a shot. Like certainly the application feels pretty light and easy and breezy. It's worth, you know, the eight to ten minutes I spend trying to put my hat in the ring. And so what we're seeing is like the majority of families are at are in between sort of the 200% and 500% sort of poverty line. And 30% of families are under 200% of the federal poverty line. So these are truly like low-income families who are applying for this opportunity. So that's been, again, like you want these programs to reach the least among us, oftentimes, and to be able to give families that opportunity so that they don't feel that financial constraints is a reason that they aren't given the whole host of options that people like, you know, me and you are, and that they should be able to use those financial resources for the betterment of their child's learning. And it's great to see the returns and the applications of like so many families are sort of middle income and below, which is fantastic to see. And then we're also seeing, and I guess this makes sense, but it was surprising, like the majority of applications are for our youngest kids, right? So for those entering pre-K and kindergarten, so Texas again, big swing, they are the ESA in an ESA state that allows pre-K students to be eligible for these funds, different sort of criteria, but the idea is that three, four, and five-year-olds should also be able to receive these scholarships, these TEFA funds to be able to choose an educational option that fits their kid. And so, probably unsurprising, parents at those like very early grades would like to make a six-year decision, right? Like I get it. Like it is naturally how we are wired as like people who have gone through our school ourselves. And so, by and large, it has been a very high spike in our our youngest students who are applying for these funds.

Waitlists Supply And A School Finder Tool

SPEAKER_00 42:13

Interesting. Interesting. Okay, so we are probably gonna be oversubscribed. I mean, I think most people would agree with that. What happens at that point to the families that don't get the scholarship? I mean, is that something you guys are talking about?

SPEAKER_02 42:26

We are. And so, again, like led by the Comptroller's Office and Odyssey, they are being very disciplined in keeping a wait list. So, again, like this is the first year of the program. And we've been in sort of other mature programs, and that wait list is such a powerful tool to unlock understanding at like the governance level of the state to understand like what is the appetite, what is the demand for a program like this. Because oftentimes, you know, people hear that it'll be a success. People will hear that people are beating down the doors. But once you start seeing that every application is tied to a child in Texas who really wants a shot at being part of this program, like that turns like, you know, the mathematical equation into like real true human stories. And so a wait list will be kept. We have lived in other ESA states where there is a good amount of shuffling in the summer, right? So families, again, like there's lots of families who just did this because it was pretty easy to do and there was nothing lost to apply. You might as well just like kind of see what happens, have all your options on the table. Here in North Carolina, we just ran like the public schools, just ran their magnet school lottery. So, you know, there are different seasons for when choice gets unlocked, and parents want to go ahead and put their cast their irons in all the fires. And what'll happen is there will be some shuffling in the summer. Some families will be like, oh, you know, we thought we were gonna change and you know, we're super happy at our public school. We're just gonna sit tight. Or we thought we were gonna move to Texas and then we decided we're not gonna move to Texas, right? And so then those waitlisted folks will be invited to accept those awards, we'll backfill those seats, and then the wait list will continue, and then we'll hold on to that as sort of like policy to inform policy discussions. Discussions for you know the next year's application process.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

Right. Okay. Good to know. And don't give up hope, basically. If if you don't get it right away, it sounds like there's still opportunity even for this first school year. 26-27 is the the launch of this program. I'll just sort of celebrate Texas here by saying going out with a billion dollars in the first year is a it's a pretty big big deal, but everything's bigger in Texas. Supply side. Okay, so you're gonna have 100,000 parents out there looking that have received the scholarship, many of them low income or with kids with with specific disabilities. And are you worried at all about supply? Like where are there enough places for these kids to go to use the scholarship?

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yeah. I mean, we're we're hopeful, right? And so it's not just like a hope and a dream. So one of the roles that outschool.org plays is that we are publicly showing the supply to anybody who's curious. So if you go on the Comptol's website, we have essentially powered a school finder tool. And so at any point you can go on and see, well, how many schools are, you know, playing ball this year? And I think at recent count, we have something like 100 combination of schools and vendors who said, like, yes, we are going to accept TEFA funds. Please consider us as you think about your educational options next year. So the supply looks good. We'll have to see how all of that sorting works out because a child doesn't just apply to a school, they apply to a specific seat in a specific classroom within that school. So at any point, schools are continuing to apply. Those numbers are updated in real time on our finder tool. And, you know, we are tracking the utility of that tool. So, you know, just recently we looked and we saw 200, we had 230,000 people come visit this tool. So people are very interested in supply and make in, you know, putting in their zip code and seeing, well, what's in my neighborhood? Or we're a one-car household. So I gotta find something close that maybe is K-8 because I've got three kids and who wants to do more than one drop-off, or we're not able to do that. So I think parents are really appreciating the transparency of what supply looks like. Um, and those numbers, again, are growing. And I know the Comptroller's office is really, I mean, just really working hard to allow new schools, and I'd be curious sort of like what your experience has been to clear the accreditation requirement this spring and summer so that they are ready to welcome new kids in the fall.

Who Kindled Morgan’s Love Of Learning

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Right, in line with that. The state has its own snowflake, you know, system for approaching the rules on this. And uh Prend has been excited to get in there and and work together. I've I've experienced nothing but positive from all of the administrators running the various, you know, there's it's complicated, of course, but um good news, we are we're hopeful, and we've got uh 40 or 50 at this point, maybe more coming, uh, microschools that that will be launching brand new, right, in Texas. So trying to help with that and just create more options for folks. One thing that's nice about microschools is they're small enough and flexible enough that you can put them anywhere. And you know, I'm hope, hopeful to see microschools spring up in the areas that need the most, which I think is going to be serving these communities, low-income and you know, kids with with special needs. So yeah, we're we're excited. We're we've been really impressed with, like you said, the rollout of this, the role that you guys are playing in spreading the word, the comp controller's office in in supervising this, and the Odyssey group that's you know handling the actual administration, the applications and everything else. So really uh an exciting time for School Choice, just nationally, very excited about Texas. I think everybody's watching. We want to see how this all plays out and and where does it go from here? Morgan, this has been a fascinating conversation. I'm so grateful for you taking the time. One thing I I didn't prep you on, but I would love to just give you a moment to um just reflect on your own, your journey, your educational life. And our podcast is called the Kindled Podcast, really looking for people that have kindled a love of learning for you that have sort of played that role as we're talking about adults out there trying to do that for other children. And uh, is there anybody in your life that you'd like to shout out as somebody who's kindled the love of learning for you?

SPEAKER_02 48:04

You know, I don't know how other people answer this. I think there are so many people who have smoothed my learning journey. And so, you know, everything from my parents to my teachers, I've just been so unbelievably lucky. It was not an accident, it was not, you know, something that was necessarily divined. It took a lot of hustle and a lot of really smart people who cared about me to organize on my behalf to get me to today. And I and I think I'm so grateful for all those people. I often think that the reason my journey is so, you know, like rife with like positive change makers and and lovers of learning is because like I found the right school. Like I think it's it really is the school and the classroom that is like such an instrument of change for me. And so, you know, like I mentioned sort of at the top of the conversation, like I sort of bumbled my way into like United States education. But like once I found that micro school, that Montessori school, and they were able to give me, there are five kids in my class, right? So if once they were able to like really see and like have the time and the energy, and then this like Montessori-based education of like, it's totally fine if Morgan wants to do nothing but math for three weeks. Like, who cares? Like that's what she wants to do, like her nerding out with the algebra board and the abacus, like there is learning there. And we're just gonna like sort of follow her as a child, as a student, and like to have an entire ecosystem of learning where all of the grown-ups were on the same page was just so powerful. So I do think that when you look at like schools as the instrument of change and you're able to make those like multipliers of, you know, the one plus one actually does equal three because every adult in that building has the same design principles, the same core values, the same sort of pedagogical approach. That child can certainly have a favorite teacher, but that child is going to be loved by a community of teachers who are going to like track his or her progress over the course of the day and the week and the month. And so, you know, my little microschool that took such good care of me as an elementary school student, like trying to learn English, they just, they just they did, they did the good work. And I'm so grateful that they were there and that they were inclusive and accommodating to a kid like me and that they put in the extra effort to make sure that the accommodations they provided really served my learning style. So I just I couldn't, I couldn't be here without them. And I'm just so grateful that my, that we, you know, that we found each other and that I was able to be there for as long as I had time.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Beautiful. Thanks, Morgan. Thanks for sharing that and thanks to everybody who did their part in helping Morgan be a lifelong learner so she can she can help so many others become lifelong learners. This has been so fun. Thanks again for taking the time. And and for those of you listening, we hope you'll continue to just move forward in this and help others become learners. Let's kindle a love of learning all over the place. So thanks, Morgan.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

The Kindled Podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy to start and run an amazing microschool based on all the ideas we talk about here on the Kindled Podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media at Prenda Learn. And if you'd like more information about starting a microschool, just go to Prenda.com. Thanks for listening and remember to keep Kindling.