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KindlED | The Prenda Podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments through microschooling. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED | The Prenda Podcast
Episode 73: Finding Your Family's Learning Path. A Conversation with Elle Rowley.
Elle Rowley shares her transformative journey from struggling high school student to successful entrepreneur and educational innovator creating alternative learning environments for children in her community. Through personal experience and experimentation, she's developed a thriving microschool model that prioritizes curiosity, community, and child-led learning.
• Finding educational approaches that honor different learning styles and children's natural curiosity
• Creating educational communities that thrive despite philosophical differences among families
• Building Solly Baby as an entrepreneurial "master's program" driven by problem-solving and curiosity
• Converting a barn into a one-room schoolhouse that evolved into multiple campuses
• Allowing children to initiate and lead their own learning projects like plays and community-building
• Focusing on whether education amplifies rather than diminishes a child's natural curiosity
• Starting small with available resources rather than waiting for perfect conditions
About our guest
Elle Rowley is the host of the show Down the Well, founder of the award-winning baby carrier company Solly Baby, and partner at Levin Capital, a private equity fund focusing primarily on female and family-owned businesses. She lives in Bonsall, California with her husband and four children on a backyard farm with a little barn that they have turned into a one room schoolhouse for the community.
Connect with Elle
To learn more about Elle's work, follow her on Instagram @ellerowley or check out her podcast "Down the Well" which explores motherhood as a transformative journey rather than merely a self-sacrificing one.
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
Got a burning question?
We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
Important links:
• Connect with us on social
• Get our free literacy curriculum
Interested in starting a microschool?
Prenda provides all the tools and support you need to start and run an amazing microschool. Create a free Prenda World account to start designing your future microschool today. More info at ➡️ Prenda.com or if you're ready to get going ➡️ Start My Microschool
You don't have to agree on everything when you come together with other families, and it's better that you don't. You don't have to agree on the same exact curriculum for every subject and everything. What has worked the best is when these families have been able to come together with just love for our kids, love for keeping their spirits alive, and that's enough.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome back for another episode of the Prenda Podcast. I'm Kelly Smith, your host for the day, founder and CEO of Prenda, and today we'll be talking to Elle Rowley. Elle is the host of the show Down the Well, founder of the award-winning baby carrier company Solly Baby and partner at Levin Capital, a private equity fund focusing primarily on female and family-owned businesses. She lives in Bonsall, California, with her husband and four children on a backyard farm with a little barn that they have turned into a one-room schoolhouse for the community. We're going to have a great conversation, talking about Elle's personal journey through school and entrepreneurship, but also what she's done for her own children and kids in her community as they've created schools and really opened the door for a curiosity-led experience. So I'm really excited to dive in with Elle. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Elle Rowley, thank you for being here on the Printed Podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:So excited to have this conversation. Your story is inspiring to me and I think it's going to inspire a lot of people, so I'm excited to get into it. Let's start. You know as far back as you want to go. Sometimes I tell stories from kindergarten, like my personal kindergarten but your website has this funny little quote that says you barely you quote this is a quote from your website barely graduated high school and I would love to just kind of talk about you as a young learner and we'll get into kind of all the great things that you've done after that. But can you kind of take us back in time and give us a feel for what that was like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure. So I liked elementary school did well, kind of peaked in elementary school academically for the traditional school system, I'd say. And then middle school and high school. I just started to I don't know if I the model. It was just like a square peg in a round hole. All of a sudden it just didn't, it didn't work. Peg in a round hole, all of a sudden it just didn't, it didn't work and I, of course I didn't have the awareness or understanding to know what was really happening. And so I thought you know, I can't keep up anymore, I'm not smart enough for this. I knew I had smarts but I was like it's not here, it doesn't, those smarts don't work here. Maybe I don't know.
Speaker 1:I heard like the phrase street smarts. I'm like maybe that's it and I would just look for any excuse to not go to school, to stay home to, I mean, watch TV, do whatever. But I also started reading. I was always a voracious reader and I started staying home to read a lot, and so my mom kind of didn't know what to do with me because she's like well, you're reading Les Mis, but you're failing PE, like how does this work together? I don't know what to do with this girl and I'm grateful she just gave me I mean, some freedom to figure it out. But yeah, I really struggled academically in high school. I had to do night school. I mean I don't know. I should look up on my transcript sometime to see how low my GPA was, but I think it was like a two point something. But luckily I had older siblings who were in college and I. That gave me a little bit of vision for like there's some other, there are other ways of learning, there are other models, and maybe this one just isn't for me. And so I knew that I had it in my head that I was going to go to college. Of course I couldn't get into any school except a community college, and so I did. And then I, just being able to craft my schedule and choose classes that I was interested in, like I killed it. Then I was able to get scholarships in college and like I finally found a little more of my flow there.
Speaker 1:Now, looking back, it's interesting. I'm like well, I have some ADHD, I have a different learning style. I needed to be more hands-on. I needed better teachers who really were engaged and passionate about what they were teaching. I needed good books, I needed to be able to write more in a way that was interesting to me. And so then I marry my husband and he has a super similar story, like very, very similar story.
Speaker 1:And so we knew that we would want to do something different with our kids, and we didn't really know exactly what that was going to be, but we just knew, hey, we had a different learning style and our kids will most likely have a different learning style Also. This world is so big and amazing and there's so much that we can do. Now, the internet, just like we knew that the traditional public school system it has its place. It has a lot of really good things about it. I'm grateful for it, but the potential for where education could be and what it can be.
Speaker 1:Now we just knew that there was something more. And so, you know, now we have a 16-year-old, a 14, 11, and 8-year-old, and we have done all the things, we have tried all the things, and I think, while some people would look at that and say you guys are, you know, like, haven't figured it out, you're inconsistent, you're ruining your kids, you know, by all the changes, I feel like I mean no parent feels like they've nailed it. But I feel like we have looked around every year and said what are the best resources? What resources do we have available to us, what do our kids need right now, and done our best to fill those gaps and or to to meet those. It has been amazing. I, I don't know now we've had we can go into this, this, in this barn right now, where we've had a classroom and next door is another classroom.
Speaker 2:We've done a lot of different things, but it's been. I definitely want to, we definitely want to tell that story because what you've built is incredible and I think our listeners are going to love it. I mean just to understand the picture of this. But yeah, let's like kind of going back in time. I think one thing that's miraculous about this story because I hear versions of the story a lot where you know the square peg and the round hole or vice versa and it's it's just not fitting.
Speaker 2:But I think for many people that feels to them like a verdict on them and their value and their worth and their potential and their capability and it sounds like somehow miraculously. That's not the message you got from all of that. It was more of like I guess this isn't my place, but you were able to see kind of over the, the walls and experience the. You know the whole thing which is life is a lot more than just you know being here in this classroom and doing these things that the teachers are asking me to do. So I'm amazed with that. I don't know. It sounds like you had some good mentorship family, siblings, others but can you point to other reasons why? Or were you just sort of a born entrepreneur that maybe just didn't allow the rules around you to kind of define your own self-perception, because I think that's a real big problem that happens a lot for young people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think I mean one I'm glad that you picked up on the mentorship, because I should speak to that a little bit more that I have these two sisters who, when they were in college, and my oldest sister who's not as like academic traditionally, but all three of them, it's three girls, three boys, and then me and my family and those three sisters they went off to college and lived on their own.
Speaker 1:So you know, years before me and they would send me home books, like my oldest sister sent me home and Anna Green Gables home to me, and that, like changed my life. That book changed my life in fifth grade. It's not an overstatement to say that it really changed me at my core. And then my sister Liz sent me Pride and Prejudice and and I just just kept going back at it. I didn't get it, the language was too hard, but I just kept coming back to it and and that I mean I really owe so much to my sisters for their mentorship through those years. They gave me that vision. I wouldn't have figured that out on my own.
Speaker 2:It's amazing because great literature both of these obviously are classics but also distinguished by strong female leads, right Like kind of that spunky Elizabeth Bennet or Anne that you know are not willing to just sort of go with the flow. You know that's almost their defining characteristics. So it's interesting you pick those two books that were defining for you.
Speaker 1:That's so true. Yeah, that's so true. Well, and I think I mean, maybe that influenced some entrepreneurial spirit, but I think that became more. You know, necessity is the mother of invention, and and that's where most of the great things in my life have come through what looks like a hard thing, that then was actually just pushing me to grow and become something that, something that better and, and the entrepreneurship piece. I think that just knowing like I just, for whatever reason, I just do things differently and I don't. I had so many jobs before I quit like literally 30 different jobs or something. So from 16 or 15 until I was 22 or so, and and I think that some point people like me just go. Well, I guess I'll just start my own thing because I don't know how to follow anybody else's rules.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and it could be that you were looking for for your mountain. You know what. We use the analogy a lot with the kids and even inside of Prenda where we're saying, look, you know everybody, to find real meaning and purpose, it's you really do need a big mountain, something you're climbing, whatever that looks like, and I'm not here to tell people what it is Like. It doesn't have to get acclaimed from the broader world. It's just definitely not measured in terms of, you know, instagram followers or dollars or any of these things. But to have something you're really striving for is the, you know, the value we call dare greatly, which is, of course, borrowing from Theodore Roosevelt.
Speaker 2:But it's this idea of climbing a mountain, and one of the things we talk about is you can climb your mountain and recognize that it's the wrong mountain and change mountains. So for you to do that 30 times, I'd love for us to switch gears and just tell this story of Sully Baby. I'm sure you've told this so many times, but it's a beautiful thing that you've done and I'm sure it feels like a wild ride. Maybe put an education spin on it, because in some ways, this was your graduate program on top of all the other maybe less of a great match with school, but this seems to be a personalized, tailored education just for you. I'm sure it was the hardest thing you've ever done and, you know, if you can kind of talk about that experience for our listeners, that'd be great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually my sister Liz, who sent Pride and Prejudice and she has a master's in education. She's really into alternative education. But she kept telling me at the beginning of Solly Baby, this baby carrier company I started, when I would get really discouraged or, you know, felt like it failing or whatever, she'd say this is your master's program. At the time that I started Solly Baby, I'd applied to a master's degree program at the University of Utah for a master's in education and I was like I'm either going to start a business or I'm going to get my master's and I felt you know more called to to start this business. And so she would remind me of that and it was really helpful to. Sometimes we we want things so much faster than they come, but you, you, you need that period of of learning in any project. But Solly Baby really started again just making necessity, being the mother of invention. I started again just making necessity, being the mother of invention. I made this baby carrier wrap for my second baby when I was pregnant with him, solomon Solly, and I had just grabbed, picked up some fabric from the fabric district in LA I was living in Utah at the time. My husband was at the? U and I made a wrap for myself and my friend, heather, was pregnant with her second and I didn't know I'd done anything. You know, know that I thought I was just being frugal. But a friend, my sister-in-law came over and she was wearing her baby in a wrap and she felt mine and she's like this is way, way better than mine, it's so much lighter weight. And I was like, well, I don't know, I've never used another. Another wrap I really loved baby wearing. It saved me with my first baby who was really colicky. And so then the wheels just started turning and I think that I mean to have.
Speaker 1:You know, take a look at this through an educational lens. I think it's that curiosity which really, like that's what kills me with any form of education. Does it do to your child's curiosity, especially in these younger years? And if it's not, if it is not amplifying their curiosity, if you don't see them becoming more curious, it's like curiosity is like that light growing bigger in them and when the curiosity is, it is a dimming of the spirit. Not that they shouldn't have challenges and, you know, go through those times where it's hard and they have to pull through, but overall, their engagement, their interest, I think is just such a good litmus for where they are like truly academically, truly in their intellectual growth. But yeah, that curiosity really served me well in the early days of Solly Baby, because I just was just throw I just call it throwing noodles at the wall phase of just like what's going to stick.
Speaker 1:You know, I wanted to make have some kind of side hustle job that I could help support our family while my husband was in school. And it's like this whole internet, like so Instagram was had just come. It hadn't even come out, I don't think when I first started. But in that first year or so I could see the potential. Blogging was a thing. I could see the potential of these platforms and had a lot of friends using them. And so I just, you know, I was like, maybe I'll be a blogger, maybe I'll do surveys online. That was a good one Got some gift cards and then made this baby wrap and I was like Etsy, I think Etsy, let's just play with this.
Speaker 1:And so bought a Craigslist serger for 50 bucks and taught myself how to use it. I knew how to sew but started making these wraps and putting them on Etsy and could barely sell them for 20 bucks, went to these handmade local markets in Utah and found that no one wants to buy baby wrap at a handmade market. And then started working with bloggers and that you know now we call influencers but they that was. That was our growth strategy that really worked and my a few years in, my husband came in when he finished school and instead of his, instead of his JD MBA program that he was going to do, we started working together and, and, and that really helped the business to to grow and take off. It's kind of been our family business and project for 10 or 11 years, until 2021. We sold the majority share.
Speaker 2:Sold it and got to meet all kinds of interesting people along the way, and I think you would say the most special of it all is you're helping mothers be close to their babies. That's something I know you're passionate about. I love the focus on curiosity in the story, elle. I mean it's exactly what's missing, I think, for so many people. I have this experience when my kids were still, you know, doing kind of traditional school. My son was in fifth grade and I have a physics background. I studied, like nuclear, nuclear physics, and so they invited me in. Somehow my son mentioned this to the teacher and we're going to do a lesson about Newton's laws and it's a physics thing. And so I got to come and be the guest speaker and I made this simulation that let them, like, play around with the laws of motion. And it was this, it was this like for me, the whole goal was to get as much fire burning as we can, and this is a metaphor that goes back to Plutarch. That's just like get the fire to burn, you know, and that was my goal, right.
Speaker 2:And what happened in the room was the teacher kept I think she felt like this was her job, right, she kept doing these like clapping drills, like to kind of restore order and get kids to be quiet, and there were like three or four kids that were really into it. But you could tell she didn't like these kids Like she, just they were the bad kids or whatever. And so they were engaging, like in the most positive, productive way that you could possibly engage, asking questions and offering answers and thinking out loud, and I'm loving it. And she's literally like scorning these kids in front of me and I'm thinking, oh no, like this is, it's the exact opposite. And you flip it now. You know, going back to Plutarch, he said it's either a fire to be kindled or it's a vessel to be filled, like you're pouring water in a cup. And she was pouring water on these little tiny fires and it just hurt my heart. You know, again, I don't blame her.
Speaker 2:I think she was doing what she felt like was her job to kind of maintain order in a room full of squirmy. You know fifth graders, but if your goal is to ignite curiosity, to get that spark, to get the fire burning, it was the wrong thing to do, you know, and it just felt. You could feel it, it was palpable in the room. So I love that. Your whole master's degree in entrepreneurship was led by curiosity, not just about how to sell a carrier, probably, but how to get followers on Instagram and how to open your shop on Etsy and how to do. I'm sure you had a million different things. You had to figure out how to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's all just. It's all just problem solving, like that's. I think that that's most of entrepreneurship.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know you want a product that you believe in, that you care about, but then beyond that, like, do you just want to solve problems all day? And if you do, then you'll probably be a good entrepreneur.
Speaker 2:Do you just want to solve problems all day? Yeah, I mean, look, I liked math. That's basically what math was. Just give me problems. I also liked video games as a kid, and that was a lot of what video games are too. It's just solve problems all the time. Let's talk about education because now your kids are are getting older. But give us your story of you said you've tried all the things, you've gotten all the reactions from the other parents around you. We'll talk a little bit about where you landed, but can you walk through a little bit of your journey and just share? You know, what did you try and what did you find in the experience?
Speaker 1:Well, preschool is easy and that just needs to be fun, right, like? I think that a lot of preschools get it right. It's just like kindergarten. It should be this, you know, children's garden, and most preschools feel that way for the most part, you know. But coming into kindergarten, that's, of course, where the rubber meets the road for most of us as parents, and we were so lucky in that we found a group of homeschooling moms in San Diego who had started a little private school. They've been homeschooling for years and they were like you know what, let's just meet at a church and we'll be the teachers and take in other kids. It'll be helpful for our kids. So I mean, it was essentially, you know, a micro school, but there were, I think, how many, 20 kids that first year, two classes, and it was an amazing experience for my daughter. It was so much of what we wanted. It was just a few days a week.
Speaker 1:Then we moved to Oregon for a few years and in the small town, not as many resources. So we did the public school and that was. You know, it was a good, it was a good reminder of why I wanted to do alternative ed. But I do think I mean I will say, like you know, you're saying this teacher that was, you know, pouring water on these fires because she had to. Just classroom management was the main goal with this many kids and that's kind of how they a lot of classrooms have to survive, except for some really excellent teachers, which there are. I mean, thank goodness for them. But we did not have that experience. But it was. You know, there's some value to learning, to learning those skills and how to be a part of, you know, this bigger system in classroom. I just don't think we need to dedicate, you know, 13 years to it for our kids.
Speaker 1:Anyway, moving from Oregon, we came back, went to that school and back to this private school and what happened? There are a few other switches along the way, a few other moves for us, and then, but during when COVID hit, this is probably our biggest shift when COVID hit, they were like these, these teachers were like this is this is going to be too hard to keep it afloat. Online is the last thing in the world like that. You know, for this community, how we envision this. And so we we can't all be isolated like this, learning and just trying to teach you this way. And so we were like, well, I think we can just take our favorite teacher and bring.
Speaker 1:We had moved to this property, our family had moved to this property on three acres and we have this tack room barn and we were already redoing it for a studio for Solly baby. But I was like you know what this would make an even better classroom. And so we two friends from the school they, they really spearheaded this project, and Aaron and they, they approached his teacher, jalene Rios, and said would you want to do kind of a one room school house at Elle's house? And she was like that's always been my dream actually. You know, her kids are grown and she's just this dedicated teacher. And so we just that fall. We started it up here with two classes that met on two different days and mixed ages, and that was amazing. We did that for two years and it grew so big, actually like outgrew this space. We added a second classroom, added another teacher my husband's aunt who's also was like just amazing. And so they moved to another campus.
Speaker 1:I think that this is like what I wish more homeschooling. Parents would hear all the time Like the change of things. It sounds like thingsing. Parents would hear all the time Like the change of things. It sounds like things are just going wrong all the time and nothing is stable, but it's like it's actually just the flow of things, Like to me. I'm like this all makes perfect sense.
Speaker 1:This was a perfect two years here. It outgrew the space, they found a new space, and then the families that like it grew so big that those families closer to the beach they have their campus, and then the moms just kind of came back to run this campus out here, and so then we just kind of reorganized again and now for the last two years we've been, there are eight families and we and it's looked different every year we just say what are the needs? What are? What do we need this year? What kind of community, what are your kids needing? And while most of us are doing core subjects at home, we come together for community and for art and for a lot of play, and we had a school newspaper.
Speaker 1:You know, just fun things like that. So that's where we are now. My older kids have gone on to different charter schools and now community college and you know, just looks different.
Speaker 2:It's amazing and I love your emphasis on yeah it just. I think we're conditioned to think in terms of checklists and syllabi and it's like goes this and then this and then this, and if you're off that track then everything's gone wrong. But I think those of us who've experienced life know that that's not how life works. You know, even even if you take a more traditional track in a workplace, you know there's lots of lateral, horizontal, forward, back, you know, all over the place. So the phrase from a book I like called the Startup, of you really encouraging everybody to take a personal entrepreneurship approach, and they say there was an escalator. Maybe at one point in the past you got on the escalator and it just goes in a predictable way. But the escalator is jammed. Is the kind of thesis of this book. Like, don't get on the escalator. Or, if you're on it, get off and find your way. You know, find your way through.
Speaker 2:And this is not, you know, speaking to people that are pulling their kids out of school, but it really does apply. The same logic applies for your kids as well. Well, this is great. Can you talk about some of the? Yeah, you said you have to learn. You had to learn things along the way. Can you talk about some of the big learnings, as you've been involved in Orchard School and you know, as you're reacting to the needs of the students that have come up and, I'm sure, supporting these great teachers that you've found? What are some of the? I don't know if misconceptions is the right way to phrase it, but ways you've thought about things in the past that you now think about them differently. Just share some of your learnings as somebody who's done this now for a few years.
Speaker 1:I think that I mean, oh gosh, so so many good learnings. I would say you don't have to agree on everything when you come together with other families, and it's better that you don't. You don't have to agree on the same exact curriculum for every subject and everything, and, like your politics or whatever, you need to have enough overlap. But also, I think it's a beautiful thing to get more diversity in our communities and groups, and it's hard to do because, of course, just like, like finds like. But I think that we, what has worked the best is when these families have been able to come together with just love for our kids, love for keeping their spirits alive, just a commitment and dedication to that and that, and just some basic philosophy, and that's enough. And then I don't know, I don't know if that makes sense, but I've just seen, I've seen a lot of families struggle to find community and I think it's like well, you're looking, you're looking too hard to find yourself, and that's probably not even the best thing.
Speaker 1:And they don't. Your kids don't have to be best friends with the other kids, and that's actually a good thing too, right Like you just learn to work in in communities that are a little more organic and natural in that way, so I think that's been one learning.
Speaker 2:What would you say are the main things? Like you know, the things that matter versus the things that don't matter. I think those of us and I'm sure lots of people listening are following the big debates in American education today. It's often like which types of books and which types of indoctrination and people are talking about all of that. In some ways, it's like, yeah, I understand, because they're my kids and I want to protect them, but I also have this sense that, like, I'm going to teach my kids the things that are most important. So, you know, what are the places where I can, you know, maybe say, look, let's, let's build community despite differences, and you mentioned just loving kids and wanting what's best for them. Does that go to another level for you guys? Or is it sort of like what does the website say for Orchard School? You know, I guess is maybe one way to put it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If we had one, I think it would say. I think it would say oh man, I wish I had our like mission statement that the kids came up with in here. It's in the other room, but I think there's an adventurous spirit. That's a commonality that we all have is a love for learning, a love for adventure, for doing hard things. I think we're all trying to raise resilient, resilient kids, playful, curious kids and, like you know, when it comes to math, we all have different opinions on math.
Speaker 2:And so is it good or is it bad.
Speaker 1:Actually, yeah, Even to that level, right? Everyone has different levels of concern about math, of like you know. Some are like, look, this is an outdated thing, we shouldn't be spending this much time on. And others are like I'm married to a scientist. Yeah, you know. Some are like, look, this is an outdated thing, we shouldn't be spending this much time on. And others are like I'm married to a scientist. Yeah, I really. We really care, we really value math in this house, and both make sense, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I think that you can respect that by saying instead of teaching one math approach, we are going to have a math lab, and that's what we do. Is we have math lab, where then the parents, you know, we step in with our kids, we're working with them one-on-one during that time, or two-to-one or three-to-one, and that's how we approach that. But I think, just don't say you know, this family doesn't belong in this community because we don't read the exact same books or whatever it's like.
Speaker 2:We all choose one together, right? That's beautiful. Thanks for that picture, because I think it does help to cement like a visual for how this can work and having something that binds you together. I think you guys have such a powerful purpose and I know you didn't read it verbatim, but just having a mission statement. I love that the kids made it and it's like this is who we are, this is what we're about.
Speaker 2:Can you share any stories I mean speaking of the kids just examples of what we call at Prenda? We call it empowered learners. We're really looking for somebody. An empowered learner, in my opinion, makes a decision to learn, so that's connected to that fire that we've been talking about. But they also kind of go the next step, which is they refine the skill of a learner. I think you can hear in your personal story an empowered learner, because it's somebody who's curious, who's figuring it out, who's climbing mountains, who's you know, daily approaching this behavior of learning and expanding herself. And what we're trying to do for kids with Prenda is help every kid get to that way of being in the world, and I would love to hear it sounds like you're doing something very similar. Can you share examples of just times where you've seen kids kind of becoming that empowered learner? I mean?
Speaker 1:to put you on the spot. I love it when kids, when they come up with the plan and they're like, hey, we are doing this. Two examples One, my now 11-year-old. Last year, or I guess it was just last fall, we had seen the Broadway play Wicked and she was really into it. And she was like, hey, we're going to do a school play. It's called Wicked. And she printed off the script. They had auditions. All the moms are like wait, what's happening? And she's like we're going to need extra rehearsal time.
Speaker 1:And the best, um, oh my gosh, what was it? The best part with that is and we had family over and and my husband's aunt said said so, what's, what are you into right now, frances? How's school going? And she said she said, great, we're doing, we're doing a production. And she said, oh, really, like the adults are, is it an adult play or like the kids are doing the play? And she was like it's a play. She was so offended by like this distinction of like adult or children. She was like like, yeah, I mean the kids are doing it, but it's obviously a real production. I don't get what you're getting at, you know.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:She had posters, I mean just, and everyone gathered around and they had problems within it. They figured it out Like and do you know what's funny, they never actually performed the play. I realized it was like at some point it petered off and I was like it's totally fine, that was a solid two months of serious engagement and learning that they did to even get to that point and that's fine. Like I don't know. I think it's easy with kids to be really obsessed with the results, like so results-driven in a way that does not actually match at all where and how much our kids have been learning and where they are. Anyway, I would say the second example of that would be last year.
Speaker 1:There's a book called Roxaboxin. You're in Arizona. Have you read the book Roxaboxin the children's book?
Speaker 2:I don't think so. Maybe I need to check this out. Is it a kid's book?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a really good one. My husband grew up reading it and these kids out in the desert they kind of make their own. It's just a picture book and they make their own little world and like a store and like little village out of rocks and sticks and you know, and they're selling goods, I mean just a really elaborate game of house. And so we said behind the barn, here will be their rocks, a box in area, and you just get, you know, we said only like natural material. So it didn't become a junkyard, still kind of became a junkyard to the naked eye, but in their minds it was, you know, they, they, they had this whole town.
Speaker 1:And so I I remember my daughter Hazel was seven at the time, she was the sheriff. Like they created their whole like form of government back there and she was like, yeah, well, holden's been in jail for the last bit because he keeps breaking the rules. And it was just so fascinating to hear how they all took on different roles. There was a cupcake shop and from the very youngest to the 11-year-olds they all had a place in this world that they created. I mean you can't actually, you know, put on paper or put into a graph or like how much they learned from that experience. You just can't.
Speaker 2:And the authorship, the self-authorship and the agency involved. I mean, one of the things you're seeing more of is people are programmatically creating these things like a whole business, fair or a business you know a program, right, and they teach kids important lessons about the way business works and you get life skills. But it's all very curated, structured, almost spoon fed to them and you know what you're describing is. It's almost like the counter version of that which is completely created by them and they walk away with this sense of like we did this and they know. No one else would know. I think from the outside, like you say, it looks like a junkyard, it looks like chaos, it looks like kids just pretending.
Speaker 2:So there's this dismissiveness that the snobbery of the academic world would say, oh, that's not learning. But if you actually get into it with them and you see what's going on, they're having to solve problems in what you know, what the education you know writers would call in a constructivist way, like they're building it from the ground up, and there's there's great power in that, because what that does is it gets back to this, this idea of you look around at the world around you after you've graduated. World just exists the way it is and there's a small number of people that look at that world and this is now channeling like a Steve Jobs quote that talks about this where you can look at the world and you can say people made this right, the reason it is this way is because somebody like me made it this way and that means that I can make it different or I can change or create or add to it or affect it, and that's a superpower just to be able to see the world that way, especially in a world where I think so many of us are approaching things very passively. Anyway, so love it. I love both of those stories. Thank you for sharing and thanks for doing the great work you're doing.
Speaker 2:I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about other parents. I'm sure words out in your community in Southern California. People have heard about this, they're aware of this. Are you just getting like your door beaten down with interest? Are people like I want to do it, like what you know? What kind of response are you seeing? And what do you say to other other parents who you know want to do something like this?
Speaker 1:We. I have had a lot of moms reach out who wanted to start something similar in in other areas and they have. I know of at least two other if not three other kind of barn schools that have started like this one, and I think that the the maybe the biggest hurdle I'm seeing is is finding a space. We're really lucky to have this space that works, you know, and it's not, but, but we are limited. Even you know, here, this is not a huge room. The next room over is, you know, and it's not, but but we are limited. Even you know, here, this is not a huge room. The next room over is, you know, they're both like 10 by 15 or something. There's small spaces, but we're in California so we're like get outside always, but but so we have had a lot of interest from other families but and we try to just open our doors as much as possible, but it is just hard because of space and we want to be thoughtful of neighbors and things and that's that's the real thing. We don't want to.
Speaker 1:We did outgrow the space before and so you know, there's another school and they were able to one of the amazing families they're able to buy buy this old church and property as an investment and and make it so that they have a bigger space there and they're absolutely thriving. It's so cool to see that. It's so cool because, you know, even though we're so like, looks like this big breakup of the school, you could frame it that way of like, oh, there's schoolhouse and there's orchard house, but it didn't feel like that at all. It was like we outgrew the space and it just very organically came about. We're all just like look, nobody is here trying to make millions of dollars, making any money. We're all spending money to do this. We're all just here for our kids. And so what's the best thing that's going to work right now for, you know, our kids? And then that's just an extension of our community, which is a really cool thing. We still get together with those families sometimes. It's cool.
Speaker 2:It's beautiful and it's fun for the kids to be part of a community like that too, that they feel some ownership in as well. They wrote the mission statement you know, this is my school. Yeah, what do you? I mean, if somebody called you from Oregon, from your old neighborhood, or from Utah, where you used to live, or Texas I think you have roots in Texas Somebody called you from one of these places and they're like, oh, what do I do? I need, like I need exactly that. What are you telling them?
Speaker 1:I say just start small and people will come. Start small and people will come. It doesn't matter if you, you don't need to start with some big space. We started, you know, with with this one little room that could hold 10 kids, maybe 12. And then we went from there. If it's at a library and then you go to the park, that's fine. Like it doesn't, it's not about the space. People get.
Speaker 1:Really, I love beautiful places and spaces and it's fun to make this, like you know, one room, schoolhouse vision come to life and it's just like. I do love that. But at the same time, that is not. What makes it magical is its nature and its people, and if you have good, good, nourishing books and you really don't need that much. And so I would just say, start small. And I've had so many people say but I don't know other families, I don't know enough like-minded families. And again, even one of the schools in Northern California that started from this I think it was she was like I'll be the teacher she was, she's a certified teacher and so she said it'll just be my kids this year, but this is a thing, and then they're able to grow from there. Now they have multiple classrooms. Again, there are a lot of kids out there and families who are struggling and they need these other options and they'll find you.
Speaker 2:We need 1,000 times as many as we currently have, and that's something we talk about a lot too. It's just how can we get more? We say micro schools, more micro schools in the world, that each one can look different, they can kind of have a different vibe, but for them to be creating that option and hopefully empowering learners the way we've been talking about you know that's the dream. So if you're listening to Elle right now, do it. Don't wait on a big, expensive space. Get your group together and get a copy of Anne of Green Gables and go to the park and you're taking a huge step already.
Speaker 1:And it's amazing what you, that you guys are offering though this, this kind of basic structure that that will help support that startup phase, because it can feel really overwhelming and it can feel like a lot, and so to have something that gives you some of that basic framework like Prenda does, I think that that that is really special and I'm so grateful for what you guys do to support families in that way, to just give it that kickstart, because it's not my full-time job. I have only so many hours that I can devote to this. I also work and that's the reality for most families, and you need don't try to do it all and don't think that you have to teach it all, like people will be shocked at how little I personally teach my kids.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can own, you can be, you can be responsible without doing it all yourself, and I think that's that's the difference is getting in the headspace, you know, I think, whether they're in a traditional classroom or you're creating your very own micro school, you know, you want to be recognizing, like this is my child and this is basically foundational to their life and their success and how they're going to, how they're going to see themselves in the world. So I want to be in it, I want to own it, but that's totally fine too. We call it kind of hire out, right? You can. You hire people by sending your kid to their school. You're hiring them to help you with this, with their education, which you're in charge of. So I love that advice and thank you for the kind words about about Prenda as well.
Speaker 2:We, I get inspired every time I meet somebody.
Speaker 2:Oftentimes it is that moment where they're kind of standing on the edge of the cliff, you know, ready to like jump out into the water below, and it feels scary, you know, and they've never done it before.
Speaker 2:Maybe they're a former teacher but they've never run a business, or maybe they have some entrepreneurial experience but they never really done education, or maybe neither Right and they're, you know they're. They're just kind of like I think this is what I, what my kids need, and I believe there are others that need it and how can I do it? And there is a step into the darkness there that we try to hold their hand and help them through a little bit, but really great to have examples like yours out there for them. And so, yeah, if you haven't seen Elle's work, can you give us kind of a pointer? Is the best place to go? To your personal Instagram? And then I want to ask you about Down the Well, which is just a really inspiring movement that you're starting. I think you're still pretty early in that work as well, so give our listeners where they should go to learn more about you and the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1:That's really kind of you, I think. If you just go, yeah, to my Instagram, which is El Rolly, I also have a sub stack. I write a little more there. I think, like most moms, we're all trying to spend less time on social media, and so I don't post a ton anywhere, and so what I do share, I try to make it really meaningful because I think, yeah, we could all do well to spend less time online.
Speaker 1:But Down the Well is a YouTube channel and podcast that I started just a few months ago. It's been in the works since last fall, but we just launched it a few months ago and it's been really. What it's about is supporting mothers through motherhood, but finding transformation in their motherhood. So often we look at mothering and parenting as really the self-sacrificing thing that we do in service to our kids, but we miss the part that through that self-sacrifice and through that service, we actually, just like you know it's better to receive, better to give than to receive Like we have the potential through that process to really know ourselves better, to become higher I don't want to say better selves, but just like to reach our own potential and I think the world is telling us that, telling moms that to become that motherhood requires you actually become smaller and you give up your potential, and that just like, absolutely breaks my soul and I just you see it in how few people want to have kids now.
Speaker 1:I mean, 47% of young people are opting out of being parents, and it's even higher for women, and I think that that just represents a huge gap in narrative and whether that's, you know, making it so women don't want to become moms or the moms are missing the potential of that transformation and by leaning into it harder and I don't mean being a martyr, but I mean really recognizing the ways that it can move you and the ways that like being more. It's not just about being more present, but it's about falling down the well, this proverbial well that Lisa Marciano's Jungian analyst lays out this mother's hero's journey so beautifully and that's a major part of it. It mirrors Joseph Campbell's journey of going out. She's like women. The heroine's journey is going down and I don't think that we have fully realized that as mothers.
Speaker 1:And through this podcast and show, I just really am hoping to empower women to choose motherhood, to double down in it, to lean into that and to find a lot of joy in it through those down the well hard moments, knowing that on the other side of that you are going to come out as the butterfly every time, time, if you can approach it in a way that will aid in your growth with humility, openheartedness and curiosity and these good qualities that are sure to bring more treasures and more light and goodness in your life. So that's like it's a lofty goal, but I've had a lot of fun just studying and digging into it and sharing what I've learned along, you know, along my own journey. But that's, that's what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:It's powerful and beautiful and you've you've, I think, pitched it well because I have looked at some of it in preparation for this conversation. But now I'm ready to go obsess over all of it and this idea of kind of an alternate version of the hero's journey, which I'm also obsessed with, and just to think about what that can look like. And personally we're experiencing this too, where our kids are growing up and it's like who are we? So much of who we are is tied up in our relation to our children. Now it's like, are we emerging the other side of this journey, a different person like you would? Anyway, so so many questions and I'm going to be reading and I may be following up with you know my own personal questions for you, but I'll try to not bug you too much.
Speaker 2:Well, rolly, it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate you taking the time to just chat with us. Thank you for the work you've done and that you continue to do, and just the goodness that you're bringing into the world. I hope people are listening and just hearing in you. You know this courage to take these actions, take these steps and be there and, if you're thinking about it, for kids in your community, your own kids or other people's kids. I hope you'll take a minute and give this thought right and say I could do this. I could start a micro school, I could contribute in my community as well. So with that, thank you so much for taking the time and I wish you the very best in everything you're doing, going forward.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, kelly. Thank you for having me. The Kindled podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy to start and run an amazing micro school based on all the ideas we talk about here on the Kindled podcast. Don't forget to follow us on social media at Prenda Learn, and if you'd like more information about starting a micro school, just go to Prendacom.
