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KindlED
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED
Episode 58: The Science Behind Microschools. A Conversation with Kaity Broadbent.
How do we create learning environments that foster curiosity while helping kids develop real-world knowledge and skills? Since 2018, Prenda has helped open over 1,000 microschools across the US making small, effective learning environment accessible to thousands of families. Microschooling is a rapidly growing educational model, but how does it work? In this episode we'll peel back the layers of Prenda's mission to "empower learners," revealing how a community-focused approach can create learning environments where kids genuinely thrive.
Imagine transforming education from a fear-based model to one that champions intrinsic motivation and real-world readiness. Prenda makes that vision a reality by fostering environments that emphasize choice, while also equipping students with vital life skills and personal accountability.
More about our guest
Kaity Broadbent currently serves as Chief Empowerment Advocate and Head of Marketing at Prenda Microschools. As co-host of the Kindled Podcast she's focused on spreading the word about how microschooling can revolutionize education. In her previous role as Prenda's Head of Learning she helped articulate Prenda's unique microschool learning model ensuring that Prenda students and guides have access to high-quality, effective learning practices. Prior to Prenda, she was an ASHA certified Speech Language Pathologist. She plays "Adventure Kait" in Prenda's free literacy curriculum and she's the mother of 4 very curious Prenda kids.
Connect with Kaity
Follow Prenda on all social outlets @prendalearn
Follow Kaity personally on instagram @kaity_forthekids
Find more information about Prenda at Prenda.com
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast:
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
Got a burning question?
We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
Important links:
• Connect with us on social
• Subscribe to The Sunday Spark
• Get our free literacy curriculum
Interested in starting a microschool?
Prenda provides all the tools and support you need to start and run an amazing microschool. Create a free Prenda World account to start designing your future microschool today. More info at ➡️ Prenda.com or if you're ready to get going ➡️ Start My Microschool
every human child and every human adult is actually a natural born learner. Curiosity is innate and so we were just trying to ignite that, and we love the word empower. When we say empower learners, like we want kids to know that they own their learning and to see their actions now it's direct tied to their future success. Hi and welcome to the Kindle podcast, where we dig into the art and science behind kindling the motivation, curiosity and mental wellbeing of the young humans in our lives.
Speaker 2:Together, we'll discover practical tools and strategies you can use to help kids unlock their full potential and become the strongest version of their future selves else. Welcome to the Kindle podcast. Today, it's Katie and me and we have a deep dive for y'all. And so, katie, what are we diving into today? Today, we're going to talk about Prenda's learning model.
Speaker 1:We're going to talk about the underlying principles, the science behind it, the model of micro-schooling that might be kind of a new concept to some people. So we're going to talk about micro-schools, why we are so passionate about micro-schools and all of the principles that kind of like underlie why we are doing this, and we're going to dig into some details about what a Prenda micro school looks like.
Speaker 2:It's going to be great, okay, so what is Prenda's main purpose?
Speaker 1:Oh, this is such a fun question because I just remember the meeting where we decided this. So Prenda's mission is to empower learners and when we were first deciding this, we had this meeting. I think there were like 10 of us and, um, we had all of these like mission statement kind of like brainstorms, like ideas up on the board and we knew it was something about learners. And kelly smith, our founder, was very passionate that he didn't want a mission statement that was like long like and kind of like cliche, like platitudy. He just wanted like two words that said what we were doing like super cut to the chase, which is so Kelly and I'm always like trying to write these like long, flowery paragraphs and stuff. He's like two words, I'm like, okay, two words. So we originally started we had lots of words. What did we want to do for learners was kind of the table, the question on the table, and we ended on empower, because I think I think a close second was like cultivate or nurture or or I think originally we had create learners. That's what it was. And, uh, we had this amazing discussion about how like we weren't actually creating learners, how every human child and every human adult is actually a natural born learner, curiosity is innate and so we were just trying to ignite that. And we love the word empower and Prenda actually the name Prenda kind of embodies that, because Prenda means it means literally means gift in Portuguese, and then it also kind of sounds like aprender in Spanish, which means to learn, and then you can. It's also a verb that means to light or like turn on or like to spark a fire, like you say, like prendo un fuego, like you're going to light a fire, and so that is really the main mission of Prenda and how we see ourselves positioned in the whole education landscape. And yeah, so we're here to empower learners. That's what we do.
Speaker 1:So also early on we learned that the main way that we were going to empower learners is not like directly to teach them or to say things at them or to create a textbook or anything like that. We kind of drew this picture of the child at the center and then Prenda as kind of like a bigger circle around the child, but there's this kind of C-shaped I don't know if you can like imagine this kind of a C-shaped buffer between Prenda and the child and that is the guide. And so what Prenda does is we empower adults parents, teachers, homeschool moms, anyone who wants to help us on this journey of empowering learners. We empower them to start micro schools, which then directly impacts the child, and we have little touch points with the child like through our software and through the curriculum and things like that. But mainly we're designing a system that will help you or any like any adult who loves and cares about kids. If you're a crotchety old person that doesn't like kids, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:Crotchety old person, like kids I'm sorry, Really really though.
Speaker 1:There are some people who like just love kids, yeah, you have to like kids to do this and like if you don't like kids, please don't do this. And that sounds like mean and rude, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So because it's hard to empower a child if you don't like them oh, it's impossible because all they want to do is not be with you and so like if that is how they feel about school, like your relationship with them is how they feel about school, is how they feel about education and learning to some degree right, and so that's a big, a big part of the work we do is helping adults become people who kids like, because our traditional kind of way we are with kids it's pretty hard for a kid to like an adult when we're doing all of the things that standard parenting or standard educating teaches us to do, teaches us how to treat a child, how to kind of frame your relationship with a child.
Speaker 1:It makes hard for that child to like find safety and rest in your relationship. And if they can't find safety and rest in your relationship, they're going to be in fight or flight, your frontal cortex is going to be off and the learning centers of the brain will not be engaged. So it's kind of a self defeating cycle if you're not going to be able to show up and like, be like, just to be able to infuse that learning environment with joy honestly, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm hearing you say that Prenda's mission seems simple empower learners. There's a lot that goes into it, because we have to empower adults who, like children, who can empower learners. So what do you see? So we're empowering learners and these kids growing up in a totally different environment for education and they're owning their education and they're learning what they're interested in and passionate about. How do you see that this is going to make a change in the world, like in a broader sense, is going to make a change in the world, like in a broader sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good question. So if you look at the statistics on like adult happiness, you know like we all like all of us parents and educators for generations have said like what do we want for our kids? We want them to be, you know, happy. We want them to live like meaningful, fulfilled lives, a purpose. And then you look at all of the statistics about adult happiness and you see like really low mental health. There's only only like 15% of the adult population who reports being like really engaged and like happy at work, like in what they're doing. The people that feel like very called to what they, what they're working on. Most of us are just in this kind of pattern where we're waking up, going to work, doing things we kind of don't care about, like doing the bare minimum, coming home watching Netflix and just like coasting right. Not, I wouldn't say there's a high percentage of people in the world who are say, there's a high percentage of people in the world who are waking up, motivated, excited to like live their purposeful, meaningful life right, and so we really want to increase that percentage. And if you look at what we've been doing and you look at the results, it's like hey, well, what we're doing isn't engendering that result at all, but we keep doing what we're doing generation after generation, right? So Prenda is meant as kind of like a pattern interrupt to this whole idea of like what the goal of life is, and like what meaning is and what purposes. It's not just like a cute curriculum for kids, it's like it's an entirely different perspective on how humans like exist in the world. And we see that like potential, that curiosity, that potential passion that either gets printed, like kindled, or like ignited in childhood or it gets suppressed. Right, if you are sitting in a classroom and you're just like passively receiving and someone's like pouring knowledge into you, you're there actually. Like what do you do if you're trying to start a fire? You don't pour a bunch of water on it, right, actually, like what do you do if you're trying to start a fire? You don't pour a bunch of water on it, right, like that's the worst thing you can do is get all of the wood wet and then you have to wait for it to dry before you can start to kindle it again. And I think that's so, so true of what we see of these kids. They're just like sopping wet, with people trying to just like pour knowledge on them and expectations on them and nobody has helped them find their unique drive or their intrinsic motivation and help like, preserve and nurture and protect that.
Speaker 1:The kids that come into Prenda, especially from public school, a traditional classroom, but also from homeschools and private schools they're telling us loud and clear that they're not jazzed about learning right. We have the data to prove it and essentially they're like wet wood, right, and they come into Prenda and then they're they do nothing for a while. Some of them, some of them, some of them take off right away and they're like oh, you're giving me choices about this. I can learn about what I want to learn about. I can set my own goal.
Speaker 1:Some of them are like I'd say like 70% of them, like are able to get this pretty quickly. There's another, another third, 30% of them, I'd say that are kind of like in that wet wood stage where it's just like I just need to heal and I just need to like do nothing for a little bit. And it's terrifying as an adult because you're like I put them in this new learning environment. I want to see them running, I want to see them like engaged and there's kind of this like drying out phase that they have to go through before they before you can really kindle a love of learning and like an intrinsic motivation in them. But that's like a totally normal process and we just help parents and guides like lean into that, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's such a great analogy. I have been doing this podcast with you for a year and a half and I don't think I've heard you say that before. That is so great and gives you such a visual of what is happening and why so many kids just have no drive. I talk to a lot of parents, and especially, for some reason, of boys, and it's just they, just they have no drive, they have no interest, they have no passions they have, and I think this is part of the problem. And the circle back. You talked about the frontal lobe going offline. You said it very quickly, and so the frontal lobe is offline and the brain's not safe. Then the brain cannot learn, and so I feel like this is what we're able to do is provide safety first. You know the brain can be safe so it can actually learn, and it takes environment, it takes a caring adult, so all the things that Pa is creating, which I think is really powerful yeah, can I share a quote here?
Speaker 1:so this is by lr no nost, nost. She wrote the gentle parent and this quote. I just found it the other day and I really loved it. She says it's not our job to toughen our children up to face a cruel and heartless world. It's our job to raise children who will make the world a little less cruel and heartless. And I just love that, because sometimes when we come in and say safety first, it feels like we're like protecting, like overprotecting kids and like coddling them and like making them, making sure they don't have to deal with hard things, and it's like no, no, no, that's not what we're talking about. With safety, we simply mean that the child feels safe enough to take a risk to be wrong, to push themselves right.
Speaker 1:Kids in a traditional classroom feel like their value is on the line, right If they could bring home a B minus instead of an A plus. Or if they, you know, there's some sort of comparison or competition at school and they're second place, they feel devalued and that triggers their nervous system into thinking like I need, I need it. Sometimes it's good. Like a little bit of stress can like motivate you. That's good. But when that when that stress is chronic and when they can't escape that stress, there's no safe place for them to like rest. You know, like okay, they're in the classroom, it's like very competitive, but then they go home to rest and it's like Nope, it's like that here, like get your homework out. Like you know, I'm comparing you to your siblings, and like there is no rest for these kids. And you see it in the mental health statistics our kids are suffering anxiety, depression. Suicide rates are increasing, increasing in our youth population, and they're there. The brain has to have a place of rest and research shows really clearly that if the brain isn't at rest, it can't learn. So we're putting kids into this cycle where we want them to do stuff.
Speaker 1:And the way that we see kids do stuff is when we motivate them by fear. Right, you're going to lose recess, you're going to look stupid in front of the class. Like we're using all these fear-based mechanisms to get them to do stuff. And we see like, oh, that's a really effective motivator, right, like you make a kid afraid. Like they, they sit in their seat. Like it's very effective in the short term and so yeah, so then it's like, oh, that's the most effective way, like let's bust out the stickers, let's bust out the grades, like let's use all these mechanisms to control these kids and push them, and I think it's done with good intent.
Speaker 1:We want kids to excel academically, we want them to be excellent, we want them to be um, to be strong and to be able to handle stressful situations.
Speaker 1:Like those are all good things, and I think the message of Prenda is you don't have to, you don't have to choose one or the other. It's not like I'm going to choose the mental health of my kids and like protect them and create this safe environment for them and never challenge them. Or I'm going to like hand them over and they're going to compete and they're going to learn to, like you know, bring home those A's and like win and all this stuff, but but their mental health is going to suffer this kind of like right now in the world. It's kind of a dichotomy, right, like you kind of have to pick one of these things. But Prenda is like a hypothesis that there is a middle way where you can have strong mental health, intrinsic motivation, love of learning and academic excellence and like to be able to help kids handle stress in a healthy way that doesn't actually negatively impact their brain development, which is what's happening right now.
Speaker 2:Yes, absolutely. You said so many things. So I started talking about the brain and I couldn't remember what, where I was going with that. And then I was like, oh cause, adults are walking around in a chronic state of stress. And then you said the chronic state of stress rate. As I was writing that down, I was like, oh cause, adults are walking around in a chronic state of stress. And then you said the chronic state of stress rate. As I was writing that down, I was like, oh my gosh, we're totally on the same brain. Um, like we're, we're jiving here. Uh, so, but that's the thing. Like so many adults are walking around in this chronic state of stress and they don't even realize it or know.
Speaker 2:And so we, what we know about brain science is, if there is this super high levels of stress, it affects everything. So what an opportunity we have right now to impact kids before they become adults that have, you know, a frontal lobe that has been offline for so long. They no longer have drive, motivation, Like you said, they're just showing up to work so that they can feed themselves and have a home, and but they're not living a purposeful life. And so what an opportunity we have to be able to really grab hold of these kids when their brains are so young and fresh and developing and the brain still needs stress.
Speaker 2:I mean, Ned Johnson talks about this a lot and a certain level amount of stress is great, but when it crosses over to chronic, guess what? There is no resilience. I bet all of us want to have kids who are happy but also who are resilient and who can overcome challenges. I read one time in one of Dr Dan Siegel and Tina Payne Bryson's books I can't remember which one, maybe the yes Brain and it was a really small section. It was so transformative for me to go oh my gosh. This is why we can't just keep pushing these kids harder and harder and keep throwing more and more at them is because if there's chronic levels of stress, resilience doesn't happen. Everything just shuts down and goes into a survival state. And so we want to, like you're saying, cultivate an environment that has just enough amount of stress, but so that resilience can still happen.
Speaker 1:And that we do stress together, right. Like research shows that the most stressful thing about stress is like having to do something traumatic or go through something traumatic or something stressful by yourself, right? So like we're going to put these kids in all sorts of situations in a prenatal micro school where they're like very stressed right, but we're going to do that in a way that they feel like they have a partner and have a teammate and have a culture community around them that's supporting them in that stress. Like I was just talking to my 11 year old who's been in Prenda since I think this is his sixth year or something. Like he's a Prenda kid through and through and I'm like what are you stressed about? Like what are you worried about? He's like I don't know, I feel like my life is like good and happy and like what's the most stressful things? He's like just getting those conquer goals done. You know, like I'm worried, I'm like it's totally on his mind all the time. He like knows where he is, like he feels like this responsibility and there's no sticker, there's no grade, there's nothing hanging over his head in the short term to like make him stress about that. He just knows that he owns his learning and that his long term life results rely on him. Right? And so he feels. When you feel this responsibility, it changes how you think. It changes how your brain processes your life, right? It's not like oh yeah, I didn't get my worksheet done, so my teacher is going to be mad. It's like I'll do it, so she's not mad at me. Like that's a very short term fear based cycle. Like when he doesn't do a conquer goal, he's like dang it, you know. Like I've let myself down, like my future self would not be pleased with me, and like I need to like double down and get this, get this done. And it's not like I'm I mean, we definitely have conversations that are like hey, it seems like you have this thing. Like how does me support? Like do you want support? What does my support look like for you? Like writing, for example, it's really tricky for them to like stay on top of their writing assignments. In their micro school they do a pretty rigorous writing program and my and my oldest has dysgraphia, so writing's tricky for him, right? So like there's already these naturally embedded stressors. Like we don't have to invent stress for kids. Like the world is already stressful, we don't have to make it more stressful.
Speaker 1:Um, I feel like, uh, I just am remembering this moment where it's like I don't know if this is going to land or be relevant, but I remember when I was, I was an aunt and I didn't have any kids of my own and I was helping my little niece like walk, like she was like learning how to walk or something like that, and I was trying to help her and she fell down and she started crying and I didn't have kids then. Like I didn't have kids then, like I didn't know that was like totally normal and like fine, she was actually totally fine. But my brother looked at me and she was. He was like thanks a lot, katie, or like like said something mean to me about like endangering his child or something like that. And I just looked at him and said I already feel bad. You don't have to help me feel bad.
Speaker 1:And like it's like with kids.
Speaker 1:It's like they already feel stressed. They already want their lives to learn, to work out. They already don't know what to do. Like that's. It is already incredibly stressful for them to like grow up. Growing up is just stressful. Okay, we don't have to make them, we don't have to invent things to stress them out, like grades and assignments and homework, like all of this stuff is kind of invented to put that pressure on them. Like if we just let the natural way of the world and maybe and maybe in a past generation it was a little easier to say that because life, especially like in America and like middle class America, is like for a lot of kids like kind of easy right. It's like if, like, the food is going to be there. I'm not saying for everyone, but for a lot of people in America the norm is like kids are not necessarily and I always hesitate to say this because I know there are so many kids who don't have this and so that is like one of the natural stressors, like they do see, like kids, who's really?
Speaker 2:impoverished. Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. There's not as much adversity, for sure these days.
Speaker 1:Then there was like I, I, my, my mom has done a lot of like family history research and she's like told me stories about, like our answer, just like 100 years ago, like our, yeah, like my great grandma wanting, like her mom left and she had to do the laundry. She was 10 and like doing the laundry was like boiling a kettle of water, getting all of the family, like family's clothes for like eight kids and like putting it in boiling water and like mixing it around, like doing all of this super hard stuff. But when her mom came home, she had done the laundry and her mom looked at her and said, like like I can trust you to do the work of a woman like I, you, you are a contributing member of this like family economy and our survival. And she felt that as a 10 year old and it's like we don't often feel that like give our kids that much responsibility so they never feel that accountable, so that they don't much responsibility, so they never feel that accountable, so that they don't like their drive for towards competency and like the ability to do the work of a man or a woman, like to contribute, isn't as acutely felt now as it was in past generations, right Like like two generations ago, we were sending six 16 year olds were lying about their age to go to go fight in World War Two because they, like they, were so brave.
Speaker 1:And I can't even imagine, like we were just reading old yeller. Have you read it? Have you read old yeller?
Speaker 2:uh-huh yes okay.
Speaker 1:So it's like they're on the planes, whatever. Uh, this boy, this 14 year old boy, is left to take care of his family as his dad goes on this cattle drive. And I'm like ever at my oldest who's. I'm like that's you in like three years, do you think you could do any of this stuff? And it's just like he's just like no, I couldn't do any of this stuff.
Speaker 1:But also, our life doesn't call for those skills, right, and so the the skills that our life does call for, yeah, I do think he's like three years away from being able to like, like to be able to contribute meaningfully to the family or to his own, like savings, encounter, like to the world, right. And so I think that, with with Prenda, it's just really, really important that we stay focused on, like, the real, the real education, not the diploma, not the degree, not the paper that says you sat in class for long enough, but the real education, not the diploma, not the degree, not the paper that says you sat in class for long enough, but the real skills, the real character, uh, the real who you are of a person. I think that is what we, when we say empower learners like, we want kids to know that they own their, their learning and to see their actions. Now. It's directly tied tied to their future success. We want them to feel that ownership, which is incredibly stressful.
Speaker 1:It's actually way easier to sit in a desk and have someone tell you what to do all day. Um, it's different to feel like, oh shoot, I have to like craft my own path and I have to find mentors and I have to like really dig in here. It's a much greater cognitive load than that we're asking of these kids and we start asking them these things when they're five. Right, so like, yes, we're creating safety this is all a giant tangent around safety. Like, yes, we're creating safety, but like we're creating a deep competence and confidence in these kids that they can handle anything that that shows up in their life. They can handle it Like tactically, they can handle it emotionally, they can handle it socially, like all of these, like all the different ways that, and like skills and like categories of development, like they're going to be there. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So I do want to walk us through a day in the life of apprentice student Before we do that. You said something that I found very profound. I wanted to pull out is you said your son would be go. Oh, my future self would be disappointed with me. I don't think many kids are walking around thinking about their future self. So is this something that in the print, a micro school that we talk about? I mean, I guess I do know this, but can you walk us through what that future self and just giving kids that language and why you start the year off with that and that be a big focus in a primary school?
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure. So a few different reasons. One, like, if you're listening to this and you're hearing, like, like you know my son saying that, whatever, you're probably probably thinking something like oh, my son would never say that. Or like, yeah, like we're really far away from that, I'd say you're actually just right around the corner from that. It's closer than it feels, cause this is, this is a spark that is in every human heart, and um, so don't give up, is my first uh sentence here. And um, so the importance of finding of this concept. So okay, so the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain right behind your forehead here we talked about it constantly on the Kindle podcast. But just to review problem solving, emotional regulation, inhibition and, I think, most importantly, the ability to predict the future, to say, like, this thing I'm doing now is tied to this result. So I'm going to make this choice instead of this choice. Right, that is a very prefrontal cortex skill. And that the prefrontal cortex, again, doesn't start developing until the age of seven, which we know, and so, and it doesn't finish until until the twenties Usually people say 25, but we had that neuroscience on scientists on a while ago that told us that was kind of a myth.
Speaker 1:That was just the oldest person in the study, right? So like they don't even know. Like, yeah, 25, like you're done cooking. Like they don't even know that it's just kind of the thing that gets said Um, so it's a really long haul, is what I'm saying? Um, and so a lot of people. When I talk to them about like doing purpose work with a five-year-old, they're like well, they can't even understand that. Like their decisions now affect tomorrow, how can you even expect them to like hold this concept of a future self and work towards it? Right, and to that I say like a baby doesn't have any concept of like speech or walking or running or anything. Right, like all they've known is like you holding them. Right, they don't know like, oh, someday I'm going to be a walker. Right, like they, they see our model of that and they might, you know they, they have the, the infrastructure in their bodies and like the, the brain infrastructure, to like to become that. But they don't have a cognizant knowledge of that. Right, they're not sitting there thinking about walking someday and like making sure that they're like playing with all of their fine motor skills, just so, so that they can be good writers someday, right, but we know that all of those things add up and build. And what do we do? We model really great walking around and we model talking, even though they can't talk and they can't walk.
Speaker 1:And so when we spend a life, spend an education, a child's education, modeling to them living a life of purpose, and when we spend that life talking to them about their this idea of a future self, that, while the prefrontal cortex, while they're still kind of limited by their prefrontal cortex, develop development, it comes a whole heck of a lot quicker than if you suddenly start talking to them about purpose and vision for their lives when they turn 18. Right, then we get kids who are totally like overwhelmed, you're priming the brain, yeah yeah, you know these 18 year olds that are graduating. They're like I've never even really thought about what I want to do, like I've just been jumping through other people's hoops so long, like anything that I want is kind of dead or like was never even alive, maybe when I was little little. But I was quickly schooled into realizing that all of my hopes and dreams are like passions, were something to be tabled instead of something to be focused on and nurtured and cultivated. So that is why purpose is really important, also accountability. So we really want to change the relationship.
Speaker 1:So, going back to the prefrontal cortex, kids look to adults in their life, especially parents and especially teachers. These are primary caregivers, these are adults that kids spend hours and hours with every day and their brain looks to these adults for safety right. And so as long as they're getting those safety cues, like the prefrontal cortex stays on, like we can learn, everyone's happy. But a lot of times in school we create a very adversarial relationship between adults and kids and we have this kind of kid culture that is very anti adult culture and when two cultures are at odds, things don't go the right direction, shall we say. So any any sort of like learning's fun or learning's cool that like we as adults kind of like try to push on to the kid culture, is immediately repelled. It's like what do you think is cool? No, that's the opposite. Like not learning is cool, like it's just. These cultures are just fighting and fighting and fighting.
Speaker 1:And when we can come in and reframe that and say, actually I'm not here to push anything, I'm here to stand shoulder to shoulder with you and we're looking at, what are we looking at? We're looking at your future self and we're looking at the landscape for your life. And what do you see? And what do I see that's so interesting to us, isn't it? Where? What would you like this to look like and how can I help you get there? And now I'm not pushing, now they're not pushing against me, I'm, I've partnered with them.
Speaker 1:And that is scary because in order to do that, you have to let go of some control. You know your quiet classroom with kids sitting in rows. That's adult culture pushed onto kid culture. And they're being compliant because they know that they are reliant on us for survival. And part of that is staying in our good graces.
Speaker 1:Right, because if, like, your ancestral brain knows that, like, if, at any moment a lion shows up, who is the teacher going to protect? Probably the well-liked kid who's obedient and can sit still and not talk and gets good grades. Right, because that's who the teacher likes. So your brain knows that there's safety, there's internal safety in being liked and appreciated and valued by adults. And we created a world for kids where the currency of that liking is academic performance and good behavior. So if you can't show up as a kid who can sit still all day, or a kid who can get an A on the math test.
Speaker 1:Our culture has set up that, like, you are at odds with the adults and the thing that they want you to do before they will love and accept you is perform and behave. And if that's a hard thing for you, because it's developmentally inappropriate for you to be able to sit for seven hours like, you're going to have this adversarial relationship which is going to keep you in that constant state of fear and seeking, seeking approval, seeking acceptance which might drive compliance. So so, adults that like compliance and like want those classrooms, they're like this is great, this is gold, how can I use this Right? And we're actually like withholding our relationship to um to push behavior or um academic excellence on kids, instead of like partnering and saying like what do you see? What do I see and how can we do this together?
Speaker 2:Okay when someone thinks of school, because, especially if you're in the U S, school looks a certain way, and so micro school you might be like, okay, small school, but there's still this vision or this thought process of what school looks like. Like you mentioned desks and chairs and the teachers in charge and but then, as I'm listening, you are. It's very counter to all of that. So can you take us through like, what does Apprenda Microschool look like and what does the day look like for a student versus a traditional environment?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so when we say microschool, what we mean and this word is thrown around micro schools are hip and trendy now, um, when we started this in 2018, they were not. I was the weird mom at the park talking about this weird new thing and I had to spend like an hour just explaining what it was. And now everyone's like oh, cool Micro school's. Like where can I find a micro school? Um, which I love. That's great. It's a big success for the movie.
Speaker 1:Everyone knows what this is now, but it is defined differently. I think that you can find micro schools or like schools or entities that are broadcasting themselves as micro schools, that are really like small schools. Like a hundred kids, 70 kids, right, what we're talking about is a group of five to 10 kids. This is like in business, in the military, like this is the smallest unit that can be led by one person. Like in a business, you never want to have more than like eight to 10 direct reports. Like, once you get past 10 direct reports, you're like all you're doing is managing it. Just, it just gets really stressful and there's not enough relationship to go around. Essentially, so we get. So 10 is like our ideal number. We have micro schools that have 12, that have 13 with the older kids they do well. Um, I've also talked to these guys and they're like that is the limit, like uh, and and so it's like yeah, you know, it differs. There's also micro schools that have.
Speaker 2:yeah, there's micro schools that have multiple teachers or multiple micro schools like within a micro school. So I think it's really just looking at how many adults per kid Totally.
Speaker 1:It's like a ratio thing, for sure, but there's also kind of like like I could put 60 kids in a room and I could put six adults in there and keep a one to 10 ratio.
Speaker 1:But the most important thing is that every child knows who their one person is right, they're building a relationship. It's not like adults are just mingling, and I think other micro schools really take that approach, and so I think it's really important that, like there's a mama duck and she's got 10 ducks and those ducks know that she, that she or he, is there for them, she is their coach, she is their guide, she is, she is there for them, she is the one investing a lot of time and energy into their relationship, she's the one that has the emotional energy as a micro school guide maybe not as a teacher, because the like hats that we ask teachers to wear just like astronomically outrageous. So how can we, how can we help kids? Like like people will come in and they'll be like I can handle more than 10 kids. I'm like, yeah, you can handle them using these techniques that are really bad for learning and for their brain.
Speaker 2:You can manage them, you can manage them right.
Speaker 1:And I'm like it's not you I'm worried about. Actually, I'm worried about the kids, which is not. I mean, you'd think that a system of education would be really concerned with kids, but it's really really not at the core, kids do not have a voice in the education system and they they don't get listened to, they don't get a vote Right, and so adults end up making a lot of decisions that are good for adults, and that's just the way the world is. I don't think that's like ill intention, it just is. But I think every kid in a micro school needs to have a direct connection to an adult that has enough energy and mental resource to like be there for them and to actually communicate that safety, those safety cues to the brain that the brain is looking for, to be able to satiate that need so that that child can learn Um. So when we say micro school, we mean five to 10 kids. Um, 12,? Sure, three, okay.
Speaker 2:So like, take us through, yeah, take us. Take us for a day in a life, then, of what a student. So we have five to 10 kids, we have a really loving, caring adult who likes kids, and so what else? What? What happens in a day whenever a student goes to a Prenda micro school?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I, prenda. Prenda is an organization that helps people start and run amazing micro schools. That's like our internal, like vision. Um, we all say we like, we can all repeat that that's what we're doing. Um, which means that not every micro school is the same, right, so every micro, every prenda micro school it's not like a little cookie cutter school, like you have to get to know that guide specifically.
Speaker 1:That guide's going to bring a lot of different energy, different focus. But if they're using the prendaa model, I can tell you what that looks like. But you're gonna have to talk to every, every unique individual guide, which is perfect, because in a school you don't really like, if you maybe have a good relationship with a teacher or with a principal, you can kind of like get your kids that teachers you want, here and there depending, but this, like as a parent, you can completely vote with your feet. It's like, oh yeah, like, as a parent, you can completely vote with your feet. It's like, oh yeah, like that guide didn't like the vibe, didn't like something else, like I'm going to go find a different guide. Uh, so that creates an educational marketplace where the incentives are lined up for, um, like guides to take care of parents and kids, which is perfect because that's like kids we want at the center.
Speaker 1:Who is the greatest advocate for their child? The parent. So if we create a system that incentivizes like kids respecting and um, cultivating relation, respecting parents and their choices about their kids and cultivating those relationships, so that guide understands that family, and then only asking that guide to do that for 10 families, if, if nobody's siblings a lot of time we'll get like little siblings, so you'll really have like like six parents you know you're building relationships with and stuff. So that is a really important piece. I'm on a tangent. Sorry I only speak in tangents. I'm learning. Everything I say is a tangent.
Speaker 2:So the model? Tell us the model. So when a guide goes through training or goes through and says, okay, I want to run a micro school and I want to use the Predna model, what are they getting what? How are they encouraged to set up the environment? And I mean, we've talked about little things like future, self and connection and safety and, you know, flexible environment. But what else can we talk about, Like the actual learning modes and what does a day look like?
Speaker 1:Sure. So it's all based around kind of three main principles Empowerment, maybe four principles, the idea of empowerment. So we have Prenda camp. Camp stands for community autonomy, mindset and purpose, and this is something that they do during a time of the day we call connect mode. It's like 15 to 20 minutes in the morning where we all come together and Prenda provides like journal prompts, discussions, videos, activities, games that help you build culture and help help.
Speaker 1:It helps kids build the skills of an empowered learner. It helps them understand what autonomy means, what accountability is, how we can manage our thoughts and our emotions and how we're completely responsible for those things and we're not looking to others to like make us happy or to like not do things that bug us. It's like everything, like I'm fully responsible for myself internally and we teach kids the skills to manage all of that. We this is where we do a lot of that future self-work, but that's that's the culture that we're trying to build. And then the rest of the day is really focused around either mastery or inquiry, and so for our mastery and inquiry it's not like it's mastery time, it's inquiry time, but the learning modes, which I'll talk about in a minute that, like mastery and inquiry is like driven throughout everything that we do.
Speaker 1:There's also another, if you want to like understand like the pedagogy better, like Prenda is closely aligned with something called constructivism, uh, which is like a Jean Piaget thing. Um, I can like post some. I don't want to go all into that right now, Then you'll know how nerdy I am Like trying to like create this facade of like. Not that nerdy, um, but I'm profoundly nerdy embrace it educational pedagogy, um, so yeah, so mastery, okay.
Speaker 1:So we have. We talked about connect mode. The next part of the day is conquer mode. So every kid comes in they take an adaptive diagnostic test in math and reading. This is not a stressful standardized test like kids are accustomed to. It is actually optional. So if you don't want your kids to take it, just say like I don't want my kids to take the test and we'll be like okay, we'll try to do our best to.
Speaker 1:The goal of this time is to find every child's learning frontier in um, in standards education speak. That's called their zone of proximal development. This is a concept developed by love by Gatsby Um, and it's the idea, it's like the Goldilocks zone of where you're learning it Things. Something isn't too easy, but it's not also like I'm on the floor crying too hard, but it's at that challenge level where I have to be engaged. My brain is a little stressed so I'm focused, but I can do it if I have a little support. Right. So we want to find that level for everyone and that is so wildly different.
Speaker 1:Like in the traditional classroom we have 2530 kids all learning in the same group, listening to the same same lesson out of the teacher's mouth, who can only deliver one lesson at a time, right, and then she's asked to differentiate her education, to differentiate her education or differentiate her teaching to kids who maybe are a little more advanced or a little bit lower, and so you kind of get these like mid middle, teach the middle and then differentiate for your like high kids and your low kids, and so now we have three levels of differentiation, which is really hard to accomplish as a teacher, very, very, very tricky, very stressful.
Speaker 1:You have to plan all sorts of different lessons. You have to create groups that rotate. You have to put kids in ability groups where kids now know like oh, like I'm really smart at math and this other kid is not. Like gives them social fodder for like judgment and comparison. It teaches kids to have limiting beliefs about who they are and what they can accomplish because they're like a slow reader. They have a label now that says like I'm not good at this, and that's stressful for the brain and inhibits learning and all sorts of kinds of ways that actually stick with you your whole life or you have.
Speaker 2:or you have students like I was, I remember, because I was put in the middle group for reading. I, you know, didn't have any support at home, or no one was like reading to me at home, and not that they did it on purpose or anything, I just didn't have that, and so where I was learning, everything was at school. So I was probably right on track with what I was exposed to. But I was put in the middle group and I I stole. I stole my book, um, from school and I took it home. I probably still have it in my dad's attic because I was determined to get to that top group. So then you have students that are like, ok, my worth is if I'm in that top reading group, and then others that just don't care, and then they could care, you know. So it really defines who they are. It's such a young age I was six.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's heartbreaking. But, like from the teacher's perspective, it's like great, our system is working perfectly. Adrienne is so driven, right, yeah, but she's driven by fear. And then, to those kids who aren't driven, it's like well, I tried once and I didn't get the sticker. This is a game that I can't win, that I'm forced to play every day, and so I'm like out, right. And so you have all sorts of different reactions to this, to this setup.
Speaker 1:But at Prenda our goal is for every child to spend all of their learning minutes at their learning frontier.
Speaker 1:So in that differentiated classroom, even if teacher's doing that well, you're only getting a limited number of minutes at your learning frontier, right, you still have to sit through the lesson you don't understand or that you already know, and then you have to wait for the teacher to dose you with whatever your learning is for the day. And we think that's a big waste of time. And when I say waste of time in the classroom, what I actually hear myself say in my brain is we're wasting their childhood. They could be out playing, they could be out, they could be doing something else. We're just making them sit in this desk and, if they don't show up to that, to that desk, like there are repercussions, parents, like there are truancy laws, like all sorts of things. There's a very strong hand of force here that says you have to sit in the seat and if we're not making good use of those minutes, like that's on us as a system, we need to answer for that. Um, so at prenda, the goal is.
Speaker 2:what does it look like?
Speaker 1:So you come in, you take the adaptive diagnostic test, we get a level for you in math and in reading, and these are like mastery subjects, um. And then we match you with a curriculum. There's like a suite of curriculums that you can choose from. If you, if a parent has a curriculum that they like, that the guide is willing to work with, um, that can also be incorporated. We're not like the Prenda police saying you can only learn from these tools. We do not believe that there's a one right tool, like one right, like there's no one size fits all right. So we want to maintain a flexible system and I guess we want to build a system that assumes the need for flexibility instead of like, like in.
Speaker 1:I used to be a speech language pathologist, so I worked in the special education world. Like man, the hoops these people have to jump through to get a special accommodation is just crazy. Um, so Apprenda, it's like yes, you need that accommodation. Great, like, we can do that and we can do that for everyone. Right, because we have these, these small groups that are really focused on individual needs. So that's Conquer Um, and then they set a goal and they set a purpose for that goal. So every student has a little dashboard that they see. We call it progress mountain. Here's where you're at. Maybe you're two years ahead, maybe you're three years behind, we do not care. We are learning where the data says you need to learn. If you try that level and it's like too easy or too hard, we will adjust the level. If you try a tool, a curriculum, and it's like, oh, this is really hard for me to learn this way, this is being explained in a way that makes sense to me. Let's switch your tool Like there's just, it's just packed with flexibility and options so that we can accommodate easily for every, every child's needs. Um, so then they set a long-term goal and then our software breaks down that long term goal into daily commitments. And so you come into the classroom or the micro school and you set a daily commitment towards that goal that you have chosen with your parent and with your guide, and that you've gonna have to stay in the recess.
Speaker 1:It's like, oh, what would your future self think? Like, what is your, what's your purpose? Like, have you come to disconnected from your purpose? Like, is that not very important for you today? Like, is there some other purpose that is more important today. Like we're having that kind of a conversation instead of like, hey, you're not going to get your sticker or I'm going to want to stay in this adult's good graces, I need to perform and behave right.
Speaker 1:So we use different mechanisms in Conquer to help kids really unearth their purpose and to find their intrinsic motivation. That being said, like not everyone comes to the Prenda environment ready to learn, like that right. Like you need to have that kind of like wet wood dry out period where it's like I don't know, I've never thought about what I want to do or what I want my life to be about and that's going to take me six months to kind of figure, like start to be able to think about that, right. And so there might be a period of time where you're just like doing math for math's sake and like there are different ways we meet kids where they're at um to help them feel excited and motivated to learn, while they're discovering their purpose and their intrinsic motivation. It's not a light switch, it's more like the sun rising happens slowly, it happens differently for every kid.
Speaker 1:So that's Conquer After Conquer, we move into our inquiry parts part of the day. We call it collaborate mode, where this is like a whole group experience, where we're mostly focused on science and social studies and we have all sorts of different activities and things, challenges that kids do together that sharpen their problem solving skills, their communication skills, their leadership skills, their team building skills, while they're discovering all of fascinating, truly fascinating, amazing things about history and science. Instead of like, open your page, open your book to page 30. Today we're learning about the Renaissance Itissance. It's like, no, like, all of this has to start with kid questions. Like we teach the guides that the question is the curriculum, and we have a lot of like I call them on ramps into learning where it's like oh, this thing looks cool. This, this like picture in print world is interesting to me and I'm going to choose to explore that and we're curating all these resources so they're getting really high quality content, but they're not being sat down and read to like through a textbook. Right, it's like this discovery process. We follow the inquiry cycle. You can Google that. We actually have a really great episode on that with Trevor McKenzie, but that's a really, really good deep dive into inquiry. In fact, his book is called dive into inquiry and I love it. I love all of his work.
Speaker 1:Um, so that's collaborate mode and then create mode is the last part of our day, where it's all hands-on, project-based learning. And this is where that constructivism piece really comes into play, where we're doing real things with our learning. Um, sometimes I will see, I'll go in and I'll read the kids purposes, um, when they set their goals, and I'll see like I want to be able to do math so that I can solve math problems. It's like, oh, whoops, that's not a purpose, right. Like that's, that's like a loop, like we're not just like I as a functioning member of of society, I'm not just sitting at home doing math problems that I created for myself to do, like that's not part of being human.
Speaker 1:Solving a problem, a real world problem with math, is what we do, why we do math right. And so I even see this evolution in kids as they set their purpose to be like, oh, I actually want to be able to solve this. I see this problem in the world and I want to be able to help contribute to that problem, and I see that my third grade math will lead me to eventually learning the math that I need to understand, like engineering, to like be able to go solve that problem in the real world. So we really want to want to draw them out in that way and that we start doing that in create mode with hands on projects, and we help them find a real problem to do a real thing in their community to present to an authentic audience and to make their learning real, relevant and meaningful to them. So that's the whole shebang get connect mode, conquer mode, collaborate mode, create mode. That's. That's a Prenda day. I did it. I answered your question.
Speaker 2:You did it. So what are some of Prenda's weak spots Like? What are some things that Prenda is improving upon?
Speaker 1:I love this question because I'm like a total perfectionist and while there's like this analogy of like well, we're building the airplane while we're flying, it's just like that's a stupid idea, like no one should ever get on an airplane that's not built. But that's how this thing, how these things work, and it's not like we have this kind of perception it things work and it's not like we have this kind of perception.
Speaker 1:It's like here, take my child, no, don't. So I have this like impulsive, like we just need to make everything perfect all the time, but like that's not how things are created in the world. And your public school, like down the street, is also not like that. It's not fully baked, like they're still figuring things out, they're doing experience, they're they're trying to to see what works, and things like that, and I think that's good. I think that I want the people that are in charge of education to be leaning into new ideas, to to be trying things and to be finding what works instead of being like, well, this is what we've done, this is what we've always done, right. Like the world is changing and we need to change along with it and help prepare kids for a world that, like, doesn't even exist yet. So, like, if we're not leading out by saying, like what if we tried this? And let's, let's take this new approach? Like what are we even doing? How? How are we supposed to raise kids that will do that in 30 years if we're not modeling that to them now? So, um, I will be the first to tell you that Prenda is not perfect, but, um, I think the intent and like the principles are pretty darn close to perfect. Not that we're not open to more learning, but we've had, we've, we've helped open over a thousand schools and we've had thousands of kids come through the program. Which is not to say we've empowered and won the hearts and minds of thousands of kids. It's that we have lots of learning data points like oh, that didn't work and this did work, and so we have a lot of um data and experience to stand on.
Speaker 1:And so places where Prenda I think can improve um, just in our like process, what we're asking guides to do is is complicated and I think there's a lot we can do in that. Like guide development process to really like we we do a lot of work with our guides. Like guide development process to really like we do a lot of work with our guides, but it's not like as open and go as I'd like it to be right. There's kind of like some friction in that process that I think that Brenda could work on erasing for for potential guides to help them better learn what to do and how to do it.
Speaker 1:I think there are a lot of improvements in our software um, and just the depth of our content can improve and I'm super excited, um, for like the plans we have with Prenda and like all of the different things I see coming together, uh, in the next like two to five years to be like really, really impactful in the education space, doing things very differently than most, most people do them, and I'm sure there's lots of learnings and and exciting twists and turns that we'll go through Is the biggest difference is, for example, when my son was at a traditional school and right from the beginning, first day, or when we just met the teacher, she showed me the red, yellow, green behavior chart that she uses in her classroom.
Speaker 2:I said please do not use that with my child. He's a green kid. He's going to be stressed out about it. My middle child's a yellow kid and my oldest is a red kid. I already know like what color they are. Please don't use this. And she told me well, I have to.
Speaker 2:And so I think the biggest difference with Prenda, what I noticed when my kids were in a micro school, is, as a parent and, honestly, as a guide, you have more of a voice. I have seen so many guides have really great ideas and they come to Prenda and guess what? Prenda goes? You know what. We're going to listen to you because this is a really good idea and it's going to impact more people. In a school environment where there's all the bureaucracy of school, it's way harder to make change and way harder to take those weak spots and go okay, this isn't working well, let's change it. Whereas at Prenda, I feel like there's a lot, more, honestly, room for empowerment from the guide standpoint as well as the parent standpoint, and because each guide runs their own micro school and has the autonomy to run it how they want, then they can really listen to the parents and cultivate an environment that works well for each and every one of their students. Way easier to do because there's only five to 10 students than thousands of students under one building.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's so perfect. Yeah, so, just along with your question, weaknesses, like I think that helping people understand the underlying principles of what we're doing is really important. That's a big focus of the Kindle podcast, right, because, like, we can create curriculum, we create systems and stuff, but until, like I see it in the eyes of guides, they're like, okay, I'm doing this stuff.
Speaker 1:But when they get it like what they're doing, they become very passionate and very effective advocates for student autonomy, student mastery, very passionate and very effective advocates for student autonomy, student mastery, student inquiry, all of these things. And that is like really what, what turns a micro school into like a nice environment for kids to an impactful, empowering environment for kids, and so I think that that's something that I'm really going to be focusing on the next like two to five years is like helping helping adults understand the underlying principles even more than we do now. I think we are doing a pretty good job now. I want to do like an amazing, excellent job there, so that would be my other like thing to improve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes me think of our very first episode of season two with Julia, because she came from teaching, was a teacher in a really you know rough school district and she said, even though she knew how to teach and she could manage all these kids and had all these tools and things, she said it took some time to get to this place. I can tell you, though, you walk into her micro school and it is pure Prenda magic. She is following the model to a T, but then she has autonomy within that to make it her own, cause she is just embodies this very like ethereal presence about her that she's able to infuse into her environment. But she is following the model and, you guys, it works. It is just so incredible when you walk into her micro school and see these kids truly being empowered. Love it, okay. So, katie, who is Prenda for and how can they find Prenda? How can they sign up?
Speaker 1:Prenda is for everyone, honestly, but for kids it's for K through eight kids. Sorry, we don't do high school yet, but as far as, as far as becoming a guide, anyone can become a guide. You do not need to have a formal education background. If you love kids, are mildly tech savvy and willing to learn, like we can help you run a micro school. Um, family wise. This is for parents who want their kids to think for themselves, uh, want their kids to be able to, like, develop their own personhood and and want to put their kids in an environment that is aligned to their family values, because that parent is going to have a really strong voice into the culture of that micro school and working as a partner with that guide.
Speaker 1:Um, guide wise. It's for people who want to have an impact with kids and maybe you're a teacher, maybe you're a homeschool parent, Maybe you've never thought about doing anything in the education space, Maybe your students are in public school and they're just not thriving and you want to be a part of that solution, Like any of those. If you're in those categories, like we are built for you, Um, and I. That being said, like I don't think Prenda is the only kind of micro school you can run right. Like Prenda is one approach to learning. I think there are many really really valid and beautiful approaches to learning. So if you are, if you agree with the idea that kids, kids deserve to love school and that kids enjoy school and thrive more when we give them more choices, like choices within guardrails, Um, if you love the idea of mastery, if you think mastery makes sense instead of like, let's just make sure all the nine-year-olds know about whales by week three.
Speaker 1:Like, uh, let's get off the kind of like curriculum schedule that's been given to us by people far away. Like, our kids can still have all of the right skills. We can do that in a mastery and inquiry focused way. If those ideas make sense to you, like, go check out the website. Go like read our blog, listen to more kindled episodes. Like find more, find out more about this idea Prendacom, you can find all of those things.
Speaker 2:Awesome. This was a great deep dive into the Prenda model and we just learned even more than what it's like in the day in the life. I just love listening to you. I'm like, oh my gosh, I again. We have been doing this podcast for some time and I've been working with you for four years and still like, oh my gosh, that's so good. I'm writing this down, I'm going to put it on my wall. Uh, so anyways, thank you for diving into what Prenda is and the change that we are seeking in the world. So that is it for today. We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Kindle podcast. If it was helpful to you, please like, subscribe and follow us on social at Prenda learn. If you have a question you would like Katie to address, you just need the email podcast at prendacom. You can also go to our website and sign up for our weekly newsletter, the Sunday spark.
Speaker 1:The Kindle podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy for you to start and run an amazing micro school built on all of the ideas that we talk about here on the Kindle podcast. If you want more information about becoming a Prenda guide, just go to prendacom. Thanks for listening and remember to keep kindling.
