KindlED
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments. Powered by Prenda, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle curiosity, motivation, and well-being in young learners. Do you have a question, topic, or story you'd like to share with us? Get in touch at podcast@prenda.com.
KindlED
Episode 47: Non-violent Communication. A Conversation with Morris H. Ervin Jr.
Have you ever wondered how the way we communicate can transform our relationships and communities? Morris H. Ervin Jr., an expert in Non-Violent Communication (NVC), joins Kaity & Adriane to explore the profound impact of empathy and honest expression in building meaningful connections.
What to listen for:
- What is Non-Violent Communication (NVC), and why is it crucial for creating empathetic relationships?
- How can self-connection and self-awareness enhance our ability to communicate effectively?
- Practical examples of applying NVC in personal relationships to express needs and make clear requests.
- The transformative power of NVC in the classroom: using curiosity and empathy to address student behavior and needs.
So, what are you waiting for? Tune in to gain insights into the art of nonviolent communication and how it can help you build authentic and empathetic connections.
About the guest:
Morris H. Ervin Jr. is the founder of Mansa Consulting and author of Reflections of a Troubled Black Man: A Teacher’s Quest Turning Fear into Strength and Pain into Passion. With over 20 years of experience, Morris has pioneered social and emotional mentoring programs, leadership seminars, mindfulness retreats, and community engagement initiatives. As a Social Studies Teacher in South Central Los Angeles, he developed a unique African American History curriculum and implemented Nonviolent Communication in the classroom, dedicated to keeping young boys off the streets, out of gangs, and away from prisons.
Connect with Morris:
Mentioned in this episode:
- The Message by Grand Master Flash
- The Center for Nonviolent Communication
- Nonviolent Communication: A Language of Life by Marshall B. Rosenberg
- Giraffe Language and Jackal Language | Nonviolent Communication explained by Marshall Rosenberg
Got a story to share or question you want us to answer? Send us a message!
About the podcast:
The KindlED Podcast explores the science of nurturing children's potential and creating empowering learning environments.
Powered by Prenda Microschools, each episode offers actionable insights to help you ignite your child's love of learning. We'll dive into evidence-based tools and techniques that kindle young learners' curiosity, motivation, and well-being.
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We're all ears! If you have a question or topic you'd love our hosts to tackle, please send it to podcast@prenda.com. Let's dive into the conversation together!
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Mindfulness is returning to a natural state where your body is settled and you're attuned to the world within you and around you. So I integrate my mindfulness practice with my non-vital communication practice, because sometimes I don't need to do anything but pause and let it settle.
Speaker 2:Hi and welcome to the Kindled podcast where we dig into the art and science behind kindling the motivation, curiosity and mental wellbeing of the young humans in our lives.
Speaker 3:Together, we'll discover practical tools and strategies you can use to help kids unlock their full potential and become the strongest version. Welcome to the Kindle podcast. My name is Adrienne and I'm here with Katie, and today, what are we talking about, katie?
Speaker 2:Today we're going to talk about nonviolent communication. I've like learned about that before, but I've never like read the book. I've never really dug into it. I've talked to several other people about it, but I've never really like dug in. So I'm really excited about our conversation. What about you? Have you like dug into it before?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I read the book through my parent coaching program. They had us read. I don't know if we read, though I read the whole book. I think they had certain chapters picked out for us, and so whenever I was thinking about guests, I was like, oh, I want Marshall Rosenberg, but he had passed away. He's the founder of non-violet communication and there's this amazing network of people that have been trained in this way or a way of communicating, and so this is how we found our guest today.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to learn more too, cause, like I said, I have read the book, but as I was preparing for this, I feel like I missed a lot when I read the book and I was like, wow, it's, there's so much more like in here. That's about like nonviolent communication versus just it's not just about being nice. I think when you hear that, it's like, oh, okay, it's just about being nice. No, it's about feeling your feelings. You can still feel angry, you can still feel upset and sad, but it's what we do with that, and it starts with curiosity. Love that. Do you want to tell us about our guest? Yes, okay. So Morris H Irvin Jr is the founder of Mansa Consulting and author of Reflections of a Troubled Black man.
Speaker 3:A Teacher's Quest, turning Fear into Strength and Pain into Passion. He is an educator, speaker, coach and youth development professional. Mr Irvin has over 20 years of experience pioneering social and emotional mentoring programs, leadership seminars, mindfulness retreats and community engagement initiatives. As a social studies teacher, in the early 2000s, morris created and designed a new innovative African-American history course curriculum, challenged the public school system by implementing a unique style of teaching and learning in the classroom called nonviolent communication, or you'll hear us call it NVC, and he also established a rigorous, relevant and meaningful curriculum for an all-male classroom in South Central Los Angeles dedicated to keeping young boys off the streets, out of gangs and away from prisons. Mansa Counseling provides private mentor programs for youth, programming, for adults who work with youth in summer camps and enrichment programs that help kids build inner resilience and lead to successful lives.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to dive into this, katie. I know I'm so excited, morris. We are so excited to have you here on the Kindled podcast. Welcome, welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you here on the.
Speaker 1:Kindled podcast. Welcome, welcome. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here Like I'm ecstatic. Let's go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can't wait. Okay, so let's just dive right in. Tell us about who are you and how you came to the work that you're doing, and really what's your big why, like why, are you doing this work in the world right now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I always consider myself a husband and a father first, before everything, even before education. I've been married for 26 years. Wow, my daughter and my son are college graduates, and my daughter just got married in July and my son just got engaged January 1st Congratulations. Yeah, family is wealth and my son just got engaged January 1st yeah, family is wealth, you know.
Speaker 1:So, before I even say I'm an educator and a healer and a social justice advocate and all those things, I'm a family man first and there's nothing more radical than loving your wife and raising your children, and for me, that was the biggest struggle and that was where I learned the most about my limitations and my strengths, you know, building those relationships and that trust with my own family. So so, definitely a family man first and, of course, been educating since 1999. And then I started getting into community work, community building, and then the last 13 years has been integrating everything with mindfulness and also kind of like the social justice movement as well, but integrating all my education, everything around my youth work and my mindfulness work and integrating that to create healing on a systemic level. It's pretty much encapsulates my career. And now author. I'm now author. Now.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's exciting. Okay, so one of the main things you're focused on is this thing called nonviolent communication and I that was until recently a fairly new phrase for me and it just is like so captivating and I just like love the idea of becoming a less violent communicator and I don't think many of us we don't think like I'm a less violent communicator and I don't think many of us we don't think like I'm a very violent communicator. You know, we would never like use that word to label it. So help us understand what nonviolent communication is and how you, how you discovered it. Like, I just want like the whole backstory of you know what it means to you.
Speaker 3:Like, let's just dig into it and maybe what nonviolent communication is not as well, cause I know when I first heard it I was just thinking, oh, it's just not saying I'm going to slap you across the face, you know. So I would love to kind of break down like what you know, cause using that word violent I feel like is really interesting. And so, yeah, I would love to know how you came into the work and what it is and what it isn't as well.
Speaker 1:Before we get into NVC or nonviolent communication. You asked me what my why is and I kind of answered it. My memoir is titled Reflections of a Troubled Black man, a teacher's quest turning fear into strength and turning pain into passion. And what's important to me is being able to metabolize, you know, our struggles, our adversity and, through a process, turn that into passion or turn that into strength. And you know, for me nonviolent communication really creates access for people to first build empathetic relationships with yourself and then, once you have space and you're connected, you can make room for others. So NVC, the acronym is nonviolent communication, but it can be also called compassionate communication or giraffe communication.
Speaker 1:And the founder of NVC, his name was Dr Marshall Rosenberg and he was a psychologist in the 1960s and he was really fascinated with the movements of nonviolence, with Gandhi and Dr King, and he wanted to integrate that with like psychology and he also wanted to integrate or involve Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So the foundation of NBC is around needs and how he encapsulates needs is needs serve life. Everything we do from moment to moment, we're meeting needs. We're serving life Right. Of course we have our basic needs food and shelter and water. We have physiological needs. We have psychological needs, we have emotional needs.
Speaker 1:But NVC's premise is around connection, a process of communication, not static, but it's a dynamic process of communication and it's a language of compassion that creates natural giving and quality connections from the heart, amongst people, interpersonal relationships, interpersonal relationships, institutional relationships, organizations, systems, from individual to global. It's about the quality of connection, the quality of relationships, and there are two components it's honesty and empathy. See, some people just go around just being honest, right, but they don't have the capacity to hear, and some people just listen and they don't have the capacity to share what's alive in them. So it's an integration of honesty and empathy. And then there are four elements to the process Observations, coming in contact with your own feelings, expressing needs or values or hopes or dreams.
Speaker 1:And then making a specific request. See what happens in communication. Let's just take romantic relationships. Right, in romantic relationships maybe the husband is expressing, but he's not ending on something clear. So sometimes in relation we're lost because people just are so used to telling people or labeling and diagnosing. We never really know what we really want and we don't really have that clarity and that preciseness of what we want.
Speaker 1:So that's the essence of NVC and I as a school teacher. In 2006, I got introduced to NVC A woman in my school. She was a conflict mediation specialist, so I was at a pretty rough school and after the kids came back from suspension they would go to her program and learn how to get to the root cause of why they were arguing or fighting, so they can kind of move on. So that was a part of the consequence to come and learn nonviolent communication, interpersonal communication, learn empathy, self-empathy and empathy for others, so they can get to the root cause, so they won't continue to perpetuate the vicious cycle of violence. She introduced me to NBC, so I'll pause there.
Speaker 3:Everything you said, I'm like taking so many notes. So I also heard nonviolent communication described as the story about how the world works and then, like you said, this attempt to meet these needs. We all have these core needs at the root and we sometimes get lost. Why do you think that happens? That, like we get disconnected to what are, I would say would it be like a disconnection to sense of self?
Speaker 1:Yeah, beautiful question. So Dr Rosenberg talks about society and he talks about conditioning and he talks about the good story and he says about 8,000 years ago the human story kind of switched to good versus evil. So it's like either it's the good versus the bad and we got indoctrinated in this either you're good or you're bad and you have to support a system of good versus bad with language, moralistic judgments, labels, diagnoses, right, and that supports a hierarchy that supports the aristocracy we have been bestowed by God to be good, which means if there's somebody that's good, then we have to define who's bad and who's evil. So that last 8,000 years, whether on a global level, a national level, a community level, we've been creating conflict around this ideological warfare that creates more separation than our natural state of connection and community.
Speaker 1:So if you're talking about 8,000 years, right, whether it's religion, whether it's different nationality, we've all been not educated, we've been indoctrinated, and indoctrination takes you away from your natural nature to give. So when we're born in our family systems, we're not different. We're not different from this passive violence about shame and guilt right, and about how our parents sometimes make us feel like that right, guilty for what we did, or connected to their feelings. Or then we start to get these unnatural feelings of guilt and shame and then we start to build our identities around guilt, around shame, obligation, doing things out of fear right, and we create these things like people pleasing perfectionists, right, and we create these things like people pleasing perfectionists, right. All these things take us away from our natural giving nature. So NBC gets us back to our natural capacity to give love or to receive love.
Speaker 2:That was amazing. Can you give us an example of what expressing a need would look like using NBC?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So I'll give you a real life example. I always try, I always use my relationship because it's what I'm sharing. I think relationships are hard and again I always talk about my wife and I and how we tend to see we're different. We see the world differently.
Speaker 1:She's more so analytical and literal and I'm more so like vague and general and I'm a dreamer, and so sometimes we can have a breakdown in communication because we're just not clear enough. So, for instance, if I can ask my wife, I can say you know, oftentimes, you know, when you come home from work I'm needing connection, but I know you're needing space. So, and sometimes I might feel discouraged and a bit lonely when your first strategy is to go and rub and kiss and hug your dogs and you don't kiss your husband, so right. So my need is connection. But in NVC, connection can be created in many different ways. So it's important to know what your needs are before you make your request. Right be created in many different ways. So it's important to know what your needs are before you make your request right, because her need could be, you know, peace of mind, or her need could be space, right, and her need could be affection from the animal. So again, it's really important that when you're communicating with someone, to get clear about what's important to you before you start making requests, because if you're not connected to your requests it's going to come out as a demand.
Speaker 1:So I'm open to many different ways to connect with my wife. It doesn't have to look like my one strategy, because needs don't create conflict, strategies do so. She said, baby, after I finished cuddling with Pooh, bear and Sadie, you know, and then I slip into my pajamas, then her body is more settled and then she's more available for human contact. Now I might be sounding crazy, but my wife is a vet, she's an animal doctor and she gets her energy and her connection from animals before humans. Now I can sit there and judge her right, because I'm the opposite. I want affection and warmth from humans. So, again, how we sustain our relationship is clear communication, and that doesn't mean like it doesn't start off rough at times or conflict or tense, but we can get to the heart of it through this process.
Speaker 2:So in that situation you might say like I'm trying to imagine this, if we were like watching it in a movie, you know she comes home, you're feeling that way you could easily say something like you don't care about me or like you're really selfish or something like that.
Speaker 1:You know you could label her and then what should like go talk, talk through that we see there are four ways that we habitually communicate, or two ways are more so, naturally, but we think is habitual. And the two other ways is how we've been conditioned. So Marshall uses an analogy of a giraffe and a jackal. Now, this doesn't mean you are a giraffe and you are a jackal, but he just wanted to have a creative way of expressing our different ways of thinking and acting and being. So he used an animal. So the first two ways he called giraffe.
Speaker 1:So we have giraffe ears in and we have giraffe ears out. So in means that whatever someone says to me, I hear their need. So my wife comes in and goes straight upstairs and doesn't speak to me. I'm noticing that maybe she's upset or tired or annoyed, right, and I'm noticing, like what is she needing? Space? That's giraffe ears in, where I'm listening and I'm empathizing, no matter what the stimulus is, no matter what someone's doing out there, I'm contacting and I'm guessing what could be their feelings in their knees. That's giraffe. Giraffe ears out is when I'm expressing how their behavior is impacting my perception, my feelings in my knees. So, bae, you just came in. You didn't speak. I'm a little bit worried that you had a hard day. Would you like to talk or would you like some space? But for me I'm a bit worried about you and I just need to understand that's jackal ears out. Was that clear?
Speaker 2:Okay. So, giraffe, just to summarize, you're really focusing on the other person's needs and trying to connect, trying to observe their behavior, and the question you're asking yourself is like how can I explain their behavior, what I'm seeing through, what their need is instead of what my judgment is like, instead of how my needs are not met?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's curiosity. The Latin word for that means is to be curious, is to heal, so you're just curious about what's going on in someone else. So you're making a guess, because the guess is not about getting it right or getting the right answer. It's attempting to connect. I'm offering something.
Speaker 3:She can say no, I'm not annoyed.
Speaker 1:I'm just tired, I need to go upstairs and get some rest. So the need was rest. I thought it was space, so you're just guessing. So it's giraffe ears in and it's giraffe ears out. So one is I'm expressing my feelings and needs based on the stimulus, based on what I see, what I'm perceiving, and the other one is I'm guessing the other person's feelings and needs as well. Giraffe Marshall said giraffe has the biggest heart of any land animal and to communicate this way is risky, right, communicating off, guessing somebody's needs and feelings. And I'm a grown man. I just came from a meeting where I cried. I was in a room full of professionals and I cried because that's what emerged in me.
Speaker 3:And it just softened the room. Right, I was going to say Katie just shared with me that she cried today too, so we're all in touch with our feelings.
Speaker 1:And I wasn't worried about being in a man box, all that mess, like I was in contact with my tenderness, and that's the strength. Whether someone believes that or not, I'm confident in my full self-expression. So giraffe ears in is when you're listening for feelings and needs, out is when you're expressing your feelings and needs. The giraffe sticks his neck up right and that's the metaphor for how you can put yourself out there, right for this type of radical communication. So again, there's other analogies and why he chose a giraffe when it comes to honest and open communication.
Speaker 3:And you mentioned jackal, though what was jackal? So jackal, people are like you're a jackal.
Speaker 1:You're. No, we're not. That's another judgment. It's jackal ways of thinking. Giraffe is about connection. Jackal is about separation. Jackal stays low to the ground. A giraffe can see like different ways A jackal was there's only one way, my way, Okay. So when you're in your jackal thoughts, the world is scarce, not abundant. The world is limited and you only see one way or one person to meet your needs, and that creates the stress and the conflict.
Speaker 2:So just to go back to your example with your wife, she comes in you're like you're not meeting my needs, so you're judging her. If you're having jackal-like thoughts in that moment, they might sound like you're selfish or you don't care about me, or something like that. Um, and then she is going to feel judged and defensive If you say that to her.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Okay, there you go. So it's like you don't need someone else Like you. You can change both sides of it as one person.
Speaker 1:I love that one person, it's only one person, because it's all about. Because it's all about how you can hear a message and there's four ways Giraffe in or out. Now, jackal in and out. Jackal is, if I'm jackal in, I'm internalizing that I'm blaming myself, blaming myself. I must be a bad husband, I must be right, I must have did something. Oh my God, I'm internalizing this guilt or fear, or shame. What did I do wrong? And we do that in power dynamics, right, if we talk about male-female relationships, a husband can come home and give you the silent treatment and what do you do? You beat yourself up. I'm just giving an example. That's, that's Jackal Inn. Jackal Inn is blame self. How can I be so stupid? How can I be so silly? Like what's wrong with me? All those internalized, can I?
Speaker 3:interject here. What is coming up for me is, if someone texts me or messages me, hey, I need to talk to you. I often go to Jackal Inn I didn't even realize this until now and I'm like, what did I do wrong? Like I'm in trouble, and it could be about going to dinner, like anything, but that is so interesting to me, whereas if I was more in the giraffe and aware of my feelings and my needs and what needs not being met, then I won't get into guilt and shame. That is fascinating. And then Brene Brown I love the way she defines guilt versus shame is you know, guilt is I did something wrong, whereas shame is I am wrong. And that's where, if so, we live in that jackal state for so long. That's where that shame just starts to eat at us, right?
Speaker 1:Yep, and remember it comes from 8,000 years. That's been passed down in our DNA and our chromosomes, right that's not saying we can't change but we got to be aware the cost of awareness is responsibility.
Speaker 1:So if you're having these strong, intense emotions, and when I'm training people, bringing in the systems work, because this is interpersonal communication, but I bring it on a structural level, on a visceral level, and that way you can integrate both. So if I'm having strong emotions, maybe these emotions are coming from something outside of me as well, but you just want to be aware of what's happening inside of you and just come in contact with it.
Speaker 3:Okay, you said this really fast and I want to point it out and say it slow. The cost of awareness is responsibility.
Speaker 1:No, that's good. If Jackal in is, I'm blaming myself, jackal out is, I'm blaming you. Right, like you said, you're selfish. You know how can you be so selfish, you know how can you be so aloof, or right, you're just kind of just like a bad person. So the judgment, so, judgment in, judgment out. Giraffe in is empathy, giraffe out is full self-expression, honesty, empathy. But the key word in all this is to know where we're at, is to come in contact with ourselves and that self-connection. You see me placing my hand over my belly. I practice mindfulness. Mindfulness is returning to a natural state where your body is settled and you're attuned to the world within you and around you. So I integrate my mindfulness practice with my MVC practice, because sometimes I don't need to do anything but pause and let it settle and slow down.
Speaker 1:Because, like you said, adrian, I have so much conditioning from my past, from my environment, from my upbringing, from my conditioning, race, class, trauma, right and sometimes you get activated and like you said, it goes fast.
Speaker 3:Slow it down, come in contact.
Speaker 1:What, like you said, it goes fast. Slow it down, come in contact. What are you sensing?
Speaker 3:Yes, and it takes so much time, would you say. This is called like holding space, like when you're in a you know, and so it takes time to build those breaks, though, and to access that parasympathetic. We talk about the nervous system a lot, so this is all you know connected, which is really fascinating. Okay, we're learning about NVC and what it is. You know blaming, judgment, guilt, shame, how to have empathy we're naming all these things. How can we then now apply it to in the classroom and then also at home with parent and child?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So now I was a classroom teacher for 11 years and there's a. I can send you the documentary. It was a 30 minute documentary on me in 2006 called Hear the Needs. So when I learned now about the communication, I had two filmmakers come and observe me for a week teaching NVC consciousness to high school students. This is 2006. This type of education wasn't even heard of. I was getting ridiculed by teachers, administrators. What is he doing? He's not a therapist, he's not a counselor. This is unheard of. Now, 15 years later, it's CASEL. It's social emotional learning. Now it's sexy. When I was doing it, they didn't know what I was I going to teach them.
Speaker 3:Wow, were you able to start with self-compassion, like? What did you do to be able to bridge or to accept? You know all the criticism at that time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think for me what was really important is all tragic expressions and judgments are our needs in disguise. So when I hear people criticize me, they're fearful because it's something new.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're like in that giraffe out mode. Okay, and then you don't have to like defend against that, because all you've done is connected with their need and through curiosity and empathy you don't. That doesn't trigger your nervous system to be like there's danger. You need to protect yourself, like any of those things that would escalate or activate you into something like more aggressive or violent. Then it's just curiosity like heals that that makes so much sense.
Speaker 1:And if it does which I don't want the listeners to think this is about doing it right. Okay, it's not. You're not doing anything right, you're living this. So when you live something, you make mistakes, you go clean it up. I still get into arguments with my wife. I still overreact, I still underreact. I'm not a guru. I go back and clean it up. Hey, hey, adrian, you know, two days ago, like I said some things and I feel regret about it, you know, and I'm and I'm a bit sad. Would you be willing just to, can we just have a do over and have a conversation like that would be my need for like connection or something like that. Right, so you can.
Speaker 1:People think it's like an all or nothing. So I want to take us back to the classroom. So in the classroom, there are many examples in my, in my memoir, where there's behavior, but I, but I get underneath and I help young people get in contact with their need. So you know our jobs as teachers and parents. We think it's to change people and make them behave. It's just to create a quality of connection where we both can get our needs met. That's the practice and that's the spiritual component of social justice. It's about coming in contact with yourself, which makes room for others, and strategies naturally emerge from a connection that makes sense Like when we're communicating as adults, we use words we don't like typically.
Speaker 2:I mean, we do see this in extreme cases, but we don't see like we use the word behavior in the same way that we use with kids. Right, kids will act out, They'll turn into the class clown, they'll just be like they won't turn their homework. They do all these behaviors and we we talk a lot about how all behavior is communication.
Speaker 3:And exactly.
Speaker 2:And so when you bring that curiosity, that giraffe, out into your interactions in the classroom, you go from what can I instead of, what can I do at or to, or what can I withhold from this kid to control his behavior, to what need is this kid trying to get met? And then when I approached through that door of curiosity, then I'm calm and I can better, I'm regulated and then I can go with curiosity and help that child become regulated and actually get like what you're saying like explore the root cause of that behavior.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and an important piece of nonviolent communication in this instant and what you're talking about, katie as well, is being aware as the adult, as the teacher, what your need is in that instance as well, because that's when we can't stay regulated, if we're not connected to what our needs are Because we have as teachers, you know you have your own needs too. It's not just about the child's needs, and sometimes I feel like in schools, that's where we're really missing the mark. We're not supporting teachers in a way to make it so that they can stay regulated and are given the tools to be able to, you know, focus on themselves first, so that they can stay regulated and are given the tools to be able to, you know, focus on themselves first, so that they can open themselves to connection with kids.
Speaker 1:I do a lot of staff development on, because everybody wants the sexy. Diversity, inclusion, social, no, no, no, we're going to start with your own limitations and your strengths. We're just going to start focusing on what stresses you out and what gets in your way. Where are you stuck? No, no, mr Irvin, can we? Nope, nope. We're going to stay here because it's easy for us to be other-centered. It's the parents, it's the administrators, it's the teachers, the other teachers. It's the parents, it's the administrators, it's the teachers, the other teachers. Let's come in contact with what's alive in us. I know it's scary, so we slow it down, and my first session is always about, like, self-development and self. Tell me your story, tell me where you come from, tell me about growing up, your household, tell me about your relationships. Right tip, just tell me about you, because that'll give me a lot of information and context about how you're showing up in the classroom with your colleagues when you're doing that, you're helping those people feel seen, heard, understood, which is such a core need of all humans.
Speaker 1:So their bodies settle and they don't see me as the consultant that's there to do something to them. So everything settles, which is why I use so much play and movement and music and story. This is not the workshop. Oh, yes, it is. This is the workshop Us laughing and listening to a song and doing some belly laughs. This is the workshop, right, because people want to be fixed. They want a prescription to fix the kids, to fix their marriages, fix, fix.
Speaker 1:But nothing's wrong with us. We're beautiful and whole, just the way we are. It's tapping back into that wholeness. There's nothing about us, that's brokenness. So we use this as a reminder to get back to our natural nature to give or receive, and we're just putting communication on it.
Speaker 1:But it's the intent and the consciousness behind your words. That's really NBC. I'll say this again Words are important, but it ain't the words. I'll say this again Words are important, but it ain't the words. It's the intent and the consciousness behind the words that can move mountains, because some people Katie and Adrian, they can say the steps I'm feeling, I'm absurd, I'm needing, but it's not coming from a real, pure place. It's going to seem patronizing and it's going to shut people down anyway, because you're using it as a technique not to liberate people, not to liberate yourself. You're using nbc in a very violent way to continue to control the narrative. I'm very passionate about this part because people want my knowledge, they want me to, so they can go and use it in business and using it in relationships and just use it, use it, use it. But this is about giving without expecting anything in return. That's the consciousness of the world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's so much like non-verbal communication too. I mean, even though we're on a virtual call right now and I can see you through a screen and I'm not in person with you, I can feel that passion. It's a feeling from within and this life force within us.
Speaker 1:The life force. Yes, communication, it enriches, it doesn't alienate, it's life, enhancing, it's life serving. Sorry, katie, you had a question.
Speaker 2:I'm just reminded of something we teach all of our micro school guides is that, like, you can say almost anything to a kid, it only matters what you're thinking about that kid and like what you're feeling about yourself and what you're feeling about that kid, because you can give a correction or like some feedback.
Speaker 2:In a way, you can say the exact same words If you're thinking this kid is lazy and disrespectful and you say those words, that's what he's going to feel. And if you're thinking, wow, this kid is trying his best and I really respect him for staying in this, in this struggle, that's what he's going to feel. And it's all about getting your internal self like in alignment before you venture out into communicating with other people. But we just you're right Like we, we want to know the steps, we want to do it right, we want to like, we live very externally and I think that's why we're so disconnected from ourselves, because we don't spend the time, we don't, we are not mindful, we don't have this practice that we're, that we're all kind of like circling around. We're very disconnected, especially in Western culture, and it can be very uncomfortable to start in.
Speaker 3:You know I have OCD and so when I started meditating and sitting there I was just like why can't I think of it? I mean, the cyclical thoughts were driving me crazy. And then I read an article and it was like, actually, people with OCD, it is hard for them to meditate and I can now do five minutes and it is, but it has taken practice and when I started it was probably I kid you, not 10 seconds before the thoughts would just start spiraling out of control. So we have to be okay with being uncomfortable and, like you said, we get so others focused. We want to make sure, you know, we start with us first. It's really important and our kids will feel that.
Speaker 3:So you know here at, you know in our micro schools and what we teach on, you know Kindled and work with parents. We talk a lot about empowerment. So I would love to talk about this Like could you discuss how NBC is used to empower students to take ownership of their learning, their self-development themselves, you know, and how you maintain a sense of empowerment within yourself as an educator or as a parent?
Speaker 1:All right, here we go. This is one of my most powerful stories.
Speaker 3:Okay, we're ready for it.
Speaker 1:Shameless pitch. So when I moved out west to Los Angeles, california, I said, if I ever moved out there, I'm going to teach in South Central, I'm going to teach in South Los Angeles. So I find myself in a high school in South Los Angeles and it's a whole new culture for me. I'm from the Midwest, ok, even though I'm African-American, the African-American students, it was a different region of the world, like a different culture, right? Culture shock. And then you have the Latino brothers and sisters and the Latino brothers and sisters and African-Americans they were literally in that neighborhood killing each other, going to war. Americans they were literally in that neighborhood, killing each other, going to war. So this is what I tell teachers, right? It's like if you're not equipped emotionally, culturally, spiritually, you're going to have a rough time. So I show up in my classes and the Latino kids on one side and the black kids on the other side and I felt the energy of the Latino kids because I look like the black kids, right. So this is all context, right? This is all something that I can be giraffe in and out.
Speaker 1:Whatever students say to me, whatever they don't say to me, I'm curious. I'm curious why they're silent. I'm curious why certain words are used. I'm curious why arms are crossed. I'm curious, I'm curious, I'm curious and I tell teachers it takes at least 30 days to create community. It takes 30 days. So every day, when I came to the South Los Angeles High School, I put the circle, I had some toys in the middle of my circle, I had some music playing, I had a journal, and the first opportunity for them to see if I was a real deal is when they said we're not doing that journal and I said I'm just noticing that this is something, a practice that you've never done before and this is a bit strange for you. Whoever wants the journal can, but whoever doesn't, it's up to you. That was a test to see, right, because kids want freedom to choose.
Speaker 3:Yeah, agency and autonomy we talk about that a lot.
Speaker 1:So if I would have responded with like no, this is part of your grade, right? It would have killed that opportunity to get them where I'm going to take them in the next part of the story. So one day I decided, as I'm teaching here, because I was a history teacher, so I wanted them to connect their own personal lives and their experiences to the history that I was teaching them. So one day particularly, we start talking about like the neighborhoods and what was going on in the neighborhoods, and I just start asking questions to my Black and Latino kids and whatever they were saying, I was offering empathy, or it sounds like this or it sounds like this. And when Black kids were speaking, it sounds like this and sounds like this. And then my job as a facilitator was to create connection. So 35 minutes into the conversation, they're curious, they're like so, mr Irvin, it's like.
Speaker 1:It seems like we were both put in this situation as African-Americans and Latinos to create violence against each other. It sounds like we have more things in common than we have that are tearing us apart. So now they're interested, they're taking some ownership and that was the first time that they saw a shared reality. So if kids don't have context. They have to come to school, they don't have to engage. So that class now they saw something for their own lives through me More safety, more trust, more respect. So after 30 days the kids came in. I remember one time I said since you know, gangs are such a big part of South LA, I'm going to give it Now. Before this activity they were journaling 30 seconds, 15 seconds, whatever it was. It was a contribution.
Speaker 3:Get it done.
Speaker 1:So when I decided to switch it up and take a risk, I said whatever you want to write about gangs, go ahead. They wrote the whole period.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:And when I hands down the whole time because it was contextual and it was relevant. This is not a topic, these are their lives. See, teachers think you're teaching a topic, you're teaching reality, and that gave them the motivation and the inspiration. It wasn't the writing, it was the being seen and feeling gotten. So that was another opportunity to create safety, trust and respect. So I went home and read them and then I created language around my classroom around their culturally relevant experiences more safety, more trust, more respect. Y'all feeling me?
Speaker 3:You found out what their needs were from their own mouths, and it sounds like the way you did this was by reflecting to them what was already in their heads, what was already in their hearts, and you were just able to reflect it back to them while everyone else in that classroom was able to hear it. Oh my gosh, I'm like I can feel the emotions. That is so beautiful that you were able to provide the opportunity for them.
Speaker 1:As individuals and as a collective. So then one day I get a notice from the principal and he said he was going to because I was young, he was going to lay me off because I wasn't tenured. So with a heavy heart this is in my memoir I went upstairs and I shared with my third period class and they went because now it's like all their fear, all the past right is coming up, being abandoned, being neglected, broken promises from in their personal lives, teachers in the past that left them right. So all this rage I mean cursing profanity, and I'm holding it the capacity right, and I'm reflecting and I'm acknowledging like, yeah, this is part of the system, right, this is part of the rage that you feel. Right, this is part of the, the, the not feeling value, right, and the first time in your life, there's this teacher that's in front of you, that loves you unconditionally, and now he's being ripped away. So after I, I'm softening with the empathy, I'm softening, fuck this, this crazy. The Latino gang leaders, the black, they all over. I'm softening, I'm softening. So once see, when you give empathy, you know when. When empathy is, is is a thing. When, when the tension settles in a room, you can. It's a collective ah, because people feel listened to and then something in a room shifts. That's the caveat out there, teachers, when there's real empathy, authentic empathy, the person's body is going to shift and they're going to stop talking because you listen with your full being.
Speaker 1:So I had 35 students in my class and I'm just reflecting. And then, when attention settled, now it's time to talk about some strategies. So I said class. I said if you tear the school up as a strategy, what need is that meaning? If you terrorize your peers and go curse out other staff and a principal, what need is that meaning? And I paused Respect I said that's one way to meet respect, but it's going to be at the cost of your freedom because you're going to get expelled. Pause, you see how powerful this is in context. So after we got clear about like violence is meeting a need, but it's going to be at the expense of other precious needs. So I said now I've listened to them, right, I've heard them, they share their strategy. I say how about I offer? Okay, mr, what what? I said, how about we just role play and just practice being in giraffe and maybe just communicating what's alive in a way that administrators and authority figures can receive it and I might tear up. So we practice, we practice, we practiced, we practiced. And then we role-played me being the principal, and we just went through different scenarios of expressing and we paused and would just say it differently. What need was that? I mean these kids were putting in work.
Speaker 1:So the next day it's in my memoir I'm on a train getting to South LA. Our train hits a car and I couldn't get to work till later. I'm stuck on a train because it hit a car on a railroad tracks. Anyway, I come to school late. The secretary says Mr Morris, you will not believe your students. 35 students came down here in the principal's office and except two, everybody else waited quietly. The alpha males, the black alpha male and the Latino alpha male knocked politely on the principal's door. He was like what? And she said the way they stay calm and the way they stay collective. It was something that she's never seen before in her entire career. And she says he said I'm busy right now, Come back.
Speaker 3:And he was like okay, sir, they left.
Speaker 1:He said they came back and he was like I'm only going to let two of you guys in. He let the two in. Man, they worked him over with love and agency and listening and they were full self-expressedressed and I got to keep my job.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:When I say that that was real education, that experience. Education is experiential, from what I taught them and what we lived in that classroom. That was a real American revolution. We were studying the French and American Revolution. That's the power of this work. You should have seen their faces. We did it, mr Morris. We did it, and for some of those students that was probably the first time where they felt like success and meaning and efficacy. You know, and that's one of many stories in my memoir about the power of this work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and something you mentioned which I think is a practical tool that every teacher and I use it as a parent is role playing, because you're building those neural pathways in their brains to, instead of just going to, what they're used to or what they're conditioned to doing, or a lot of these kids probably came from environments where this was not the norm right, so you gave them an opportunity to practice it in a safe environment, which is huge. I mean, role-playing is like my number one go-to and play. You talked about play and movement, especially with toddler behavior, with little kids or first, second, third graders. Just tap into the power of play and tap into role-playing so they can practice, so that whenever the stakes are real and we go into reality, they already know what to do.
Speaker 1:Those hard wires turn into soft wires. And that's where transformation lives, not the hard wiring but, like you said, making those new neural connections. And that's through the play and the movement and safety and trust and respect and the repetition Right yeah, no yeah. So that was one of many stories of the power of this work.
Speaker 2:What are some of the other changes that you see in kids once they learn this, and do you teach it to them in just like the same way you've just taught us, like you talk about giraffe and jackal, like you practice it, or are there different techniques or strategies you would use when you're teaching this to a kid?
Speaker 1:Well, for me you mentioned developmentally, right, you know pre-K or toddlers and pre-K, and I've taught this probably as young as probably third grade, second or third grade, and up until the university level in terms of youth. Up until the university level in terms of youth, and for me, depending on what audience I'm in, I might not even use NBC or compassionate communication. I might just play for a couple of weeks. I might just right, we might just incorporate music and then talk about how are you experiencing that music in your body. So for me, just like I told a story about Soft LA, like invalidating the gang culture, like it's really about like adapting and adjusting this process to whatever cultural demographic, developmental demographic that you find yourself in front of. So, as a NVC certified trainer, even before that, my level of self-confidence, right, and using imagination and creativity, there's really not one way. And especially when you're teaching young people, the fun is creating different ways to teach the work without saying it's what it is, because sometimes it shows up as like school when you use terms and vocabularies. So if I'm in a tough neighborhood, right, I'm not using terms.
Speaker 1:I'm also in the Hamptons teaching this. I'm in upstate New York, right? So I have to be in tune State of New York right. So I have to be in tune right with the audiences that I find myself in front of, to adjust and adapt the consciousness. Now, of course, with those environments where I don't use vocabulary, I am eventually but that's not the most important thing to do out the gate is creating safety, trust and respect, Because if you care about your children, if you really care deeply and you're connected to that care, anything you say is not violent. So there's some conceptual things that's important to embody, because some people hide behind the structure and the structure is amazing, but it has to be substance there and consciousness behind the structure. And some play and using a bit of imagination and creativity and that's the fun part like I feel, like I tinker, I tinker do you have a quick like thing that you can do with us right now.
Speaker 3:That's quick on. I, katie, loves play. We're working on embodying play. She has struggled with play, but as she's had kids, she's done better. I mean that's me like you're talking about movement and that's how I regulate my body for of embodying play. She has struggled with play, but as she's had kids, she's done better. I mean that's me Like you're talking about movement and that's how I regulate my body for sure. So do you have something we can do right now?
Speaker 2:Can I like speak to that a little bit while you think for a minute? So I definitely didn't grow up with like a lot of emotional safety, like where it was okay to have feelings, right. So you gave an example at the beginning of the call where you said you were on a meeting and you cried and it was cool and you just like embraced it. When I cried on a meeting today I turned my mic and my camera off and like ugly cried, but like I, so like I feelings, when part of that was like playing is not okay, really like playing is not productive and my value is productivity, right. So that's like my hard wiring and I'm kind of like healing as I've had kids I have four young kids and I've had to like learn how to play again and how to value play and to like heal my like unhealthy relationship with productivity and my own value and things like that, so that I don't pass that onto my kids. I don't want to convey to them that like you're only worthwhile when you're hitting your goals and when you're, you know, doing your chores and things like that, it's like no, like you're valuable, I love you no matter what, all the way you know and we can just play and have fun.
Speaker 2:But for kids who are coming from rougher neighborhoods like that, maybe don't ever, haven't ever really felt what it is like to relax and to play and be safe. It's almost like before you, you, you can't even. It's like asking someone to like describe something they've never tasted, to talk about something they've never tasted before. You have to create this environment where you are giving it to them, right, and that they feel it, and then later they can talk about it and reflect on it. But you have to start with that foundation and it like how do you lay that foundation for kids who don't have it Like play music, like what are yeah, what are some of the things? How do you use music specifically?
Speaker 1:So how I, how I use music. I came from the kind of the hip hop generation and I know when I was in South LA, like the music that they were listening to, there was a gap between the music that I was listening to, but it didn't matter, because I chose music that would capture their attention. So I always had a boombox in my class set up and I would always set my class up, the music would be on. I would prep my class Certain days, I would have it in a circle and then then I would have, like I call them spirit balls, Like if we was in person.
Speaker 1:I made up these games called group juggle. It's an opportunity for us to create interdependence, like I put everybody in a circle and we play, because I want us to understand that we need each other, you know, in the classroom. So having the music on, and even if they said, like this music suck, it's terrible, I would say I'm curious, like could you observe and describe, like, what makes it terrible? Oh man, because that's back in the day. I'm like, well, could you say more? So even if the kids don't like the music, they're engaged right, because you're still giving them voice. So that's how I use music and eventually I took different call and responses out of the songs and I used that to get their attention All the time. Be quiet, shut up.
Speaker 2:Wait can you do that again? I'm just totally kidding.
Speaker 3:That was awesome. Be quiet. You're talking on my name. Quiet, stop, stop talking. You can hear me clap once.
Speaker 1:If you can hear me, clap once. If you can hear me, clap six times. If you can hear me, don't clap at all, just hear me.
Speaker 3:Hey, this is our exercise that I asked for. You're getting us to loosen up. This is terrible.
Speaker 1:It's terrible and I got a game for you too. So. So there's an old hip hop song, one of the dopest hip hop songs ever. It's called the Message. It's from Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five and it's called the Message. I don't know if you ever it's like, don't push me, cause I'm close no to the S.
Speaker 1:So with the song I take out, I take out different calling responses. And it would be like, you know, a child is born with no state of mind and they respond blind to the ways of mankind. So, after some persistence, like the reputation, like they love the different creative ways, and then when we study the Constitution, we're reading the preamble to the Constitution Like I turned it into a call to response. We're reading the preamble to the Constitution Like I turned it into a call to response. And some of my students I still talk to they're like 28 and 29. And they'll call me and they'll say the Constitution heals people, just like me. Or sovereignty people have the right to rule. So like the different, like the music, rhythmical, and first of all it started with music, but then we took some of their assignments was to take some of the texts and come up with a catchy phrase. So role play, like drama, is a great way to teach concept and then it's taking a risk.
Speaker 1:So one day they were like Mr Morris, because I rap too, I'm a storyteller, I'm a poet. So they were like you're always rapping, I call it awake or sleep. So in're like you're always rapping, I call it awake or sleep. So in my memoir I talk about if you're awake, you're learning, you're listening, like you come to class on time. If you're asleep, you're missing school, you're engaging in risky sex, like you're acting out in class. So they had the journal about sleep and being awake and when we talked about American history, I would say when they were killing each other in this war, why was it sleep behavior? Why was it awake behavior?
Speaker 1:So teaching through metaphor is a great way of because they can access sleep and awake and they can use their prior experiences with the content. So one day they was like Mr Morris, mr Manson, can we rap? Sleep Meaning they wanted to rap about drugs and gangs. And this is about like validating. I'm like all right, it's the thing Like whoever rap got to be dope, you know what I'm saying, or there's going to be some consequences, Like I got to feel it right, there's going to be consequences if your rap is not dope enough.
Speaker 2:I wish that you were my high school teacher.
Speaker 1:Could you imagine the level of engagement? Now, we still did work. We had productive work done, because, right, if it's less is more, the work is done, we can play. So I let them rap. I was like man, that was whack, it was terrible, it was right, right. And then it was like, well, why don't you try it? So just to show them how skilled I was. Like I made up a freestyle about like drugs and gangs and they went nuts.
Speaker 3:Oh, oh, my God.
Speaker 1:And I did that to show them that I'm an intelligent black man and it's not hard for me to talk about killing. It's not hard to be talking about slanging dope. It's not hard to be talking about slanging dope. It's not hard to be talking about all those. Now, I'm not disrespecting the heroes you look up to in the streets, but I really wanted them to see that there are two worlds and they have another alternative. So the reason why I'm talking about consciousness, I'm talking about using articulating words. I got feelings, words all up around the room because I just want y'all to at least have the discernment to make a choice and I just wanted them to just understand I'm not dissing y'all lifestyles, I just want you to know that there's something else. And when I talk to these young men now they get emotional because they, like Mr Moore, is like you exposed us to something else and you let us choose. That's incredible, and I'm on this planet to give people the power and the freedom just to choose.
Speaker 1:So the drama, the role play, the music, the creativity, the team building you incorporate that in your curriculum. Right, it's not playing. And then history it's playing, integrated with history, and that's the use of your imagination and thinking outside of the norm as teachers, which we are afraid to do because we don't want to get in trouble from that good versus evil, right that good versus evil. I don't want to be a bad person. I don't want to be in trouble from that good versus evil right that good versus evil. I don't want to be a bad person. I don't want to be ostracized. I want to do it right. I want to be a good, nice, little obedient person, a nice, obedient, dead person inside and I believe in aliveness.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that's incredible. Okay, we got to wrap up. This has been truly like one of my favorite episodes. I've learned so much and I feel like truly like nourished inside. So thank you so much. This is like exactly what I needed to for myself today. But we ask this question to everyone that comes on who is someone who has kindled your learning, curiosity, motivation, passion in your life? Who has been that person that's like found that aliveness in you?
Speaker 3:Who's kindled that fire that we're hearing within you? Who's kindled?
Speaker 1:that fire that we're hearing within you? That's an amazing question and there's so many people that's that's poured into me. I'm thinking should I go high school? You have a choice, I have a choice, I have a choice.
Speaker 1:I had an African-American drama and poetry teacher. Her name is Ms Ballard and, just FYI, I take her out on dates. She's still living, she's in her late seventies and I take her out on dates. So cause I just, I, just cause I'm just I want to let her know how much she, you know she empowered me. So she was like the first teacher that taught me about my culture through poetry.
Speaker 1:You know the Harlem Renaissance, and I was a very extroverted kid, right, I could challenge the status quo, but when she introduced me to like different ways to use poetry, and then I just fell in love with Langston Hughes and Connie Cullen and all the Harlem Renaissance poets, and then she incorporated theater, she incorporated role play, and I was very athletic, right, sports and gym were my favorite subjects in history, but this drama and poetry, it tapped me into my nurturing side and my creative side.
Speaker 1:And she's the first teacher. She took me on a field trip to a place called the Karamu. It's the oldest African-American theater in the history of the United States. I didn't even know it existed One cold winter day during winter break. It was a class field trip and she took me to this theater and I've been connected to this theater ever since I'm actually, I do a lot of programs there and I do things there to this day, and so, yes, I would say Ms Ballard and it was amazing because when I did my first one-man show in 2018, she was in the front row watching me do a one-man show incorporating history and culture and folk tales, and it was just an amazing experience to have her. So I give back, you know, to my mentors and my teachers that provided that foundation for me. So she had me tap into that theater side of me and it was a way to channel some of my recklessness in school, you know, through my love of my people and my culture and through my love of the arts.
Speaker 3:And it comes right back to what we've been talking about this whole time is that root connection and how important that is. So how can people find more about your work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, simply morrisirvincom, m-o-r-r-i-s-e-r-v, as in Victor I-Ncom. That is my landing page for my new memoir and it's going to give you some real deep insight about my whole career 24 years in education and also practicing mindfulness and social justice and restorative justice and community building and it gives you an opportunity to take a look at my memoir and what it's about. So MorrisUrbancom is the fastest way to get in touch with me is the fastest way to get in touch with me. Also, instagram is TheRealMansa T-H-E-R-E-A-L-M-A-N-S-A, so you can look me up MorrisIrvincom On my Instagram is TheRealMansa M-A-N-S-A.
Speaker 2:Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was a great conversation. I feel like I'm a better person for it. Thank you, oh my God, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:I appreciate it. Thanks for having me Peace. That is it for today, Katie. What did you think about this conversation?
Speaker 2:That, like that was power, like that was so fire. Like I am going to spend the next two weeks probably doing nothing but reading up on nonviolent communication and like, just it's just when you think like you've done a lot of work, like internally, and then you hear something like this and you're like, oh, I mean I'm just like at the beginning of this, like and that's okay, like I love that, that's fine, it's great, I love it, I am right where I should be and I hear you having some self-compassion and that's what my communications all about.
Speaker 3:Give me yourself compassion that, hey, it's okay that I feel this way. I have a lot more work to do. I love that. It just starts, you know, with us and our internal thoughts and feelings and emotions, because once we start there, then we can, you know, be others focused, and I love just. The examples he gave were really easy to apply. Even, as you know, a parent or in work, I could really take what, how he was, you know, talking about his wife and apply it to my life and go, oh yeah, I need to be more of that giraffe, and I love that analogy too. I love it Very helpful. Okay, so you know, that's it for today. We really hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did. If it was helpful to you, please like, subscribe. Follow us on social at Prenda, learn. If you have any questions, all you need to do is email us at podcast at prendacom. You can also join our Facebook group called the Kindled Collective and subscribe to our weekly newsletter called the Sunday Spark.
Speaker 2:The Kindle podcast is brought to you by Prenda. Prenda makes it easy for you to start and run an amazing micro school based on all of the things that we talk about here on the Kindle podcast. If you want more information about guiding a Prenda microchool, just go to apprendacom. Thanks for listening and remember to keep kindling.
